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Post by upbasketballfan on May 31, 2022 7:57:20 GMT -5
My comment about Gaither was not a call for a full HR performance review of her tenure as AD. She carried on with her subordinate for almost 3 years during which time average home game attendance began to decline. Even the year of the St. John's game, average home attendance declined 8% from the prior season. Without the St. John's game, average home game attendance that season was 16% lower than the previous year. The Miss. State game drew a whopping 2200 fans. It was the publicity of the facts about her sudden departure that started events cascading. Yet average game attendance held in there until Ray's final season when the university announced its new branding strategy. Two years earlier, Vowels had announced a branding strategy that re-emphasized "Detroit" and said specifically that "Detroit Mercy" was not a permitted way to name our teams. Average game attendance rose 15% from 2013. When the university announced the new "Detroit Mercy" branding strategy in 2016, average attendance fell 16% from the prior year and the next season, it fell another 19%. In two years, average game attendance dropped 32.6% once the university forced the current branding strategy upon Athletics. Now, part of this decline can be attributed to the record of Bacari's first team. But not all of it. The consilience between the change in branding and the attendance is staring at us right there in the numbers. And the attendance gains in 2014 and 2015 under the "Detroit Titans" branding policy of Vowels are also right there in the numbers. And those gains were made even though Ray's teams in those years struggled with their W-L records compared to his previous teams. This gets back to my point about the importance of getting fans in the stands. And the role that attendance plays in making players want to come and play here rather than us being their Plan Z. In turn, this gets us back to our current situation. How do you generate excitement for players considering us such that it makes them want to play here? To get the better players who will produce more W's that, in turn, will draw more fans to watch our games, we must offer them facilities that are competitive with the ones that they will see when they visit other schools. That does not mean that we have to provide a luxurious power school experience. It does mean that we have to offer them something that is competitive. Otherwise, the excitement and winning will remain elsewhere. Housing, nutrition, sports medicine, conditioning, and fans in the stands. We won't get all at once. The reason we started with the Titan Club room is because that addresses nutrition by providing players with a newly remodeled room in which they can eat meals that will help them improve their physical conditioning. It's a start. But the university itself must step up to the plate here so that alumni and fans have something to sell to potential donors. Looks like I owe Vowels some apology. I was not aware he tried to improve the brand with the Detroit branding. I was dumping 90% of the branding fail and waste of cash on him. So who is most responsible for the Detroit Mercy miss? I realize it is a combo of things that have contributed to the decline but the figures above shows attendance upturn when The name Detroit was emphasized. Why would we spend a million dollars and ignore the evidence in front of us. We joke about getting $ from Dan Gilbert but wouldn’t be easier for him to donate to Detroit rather than Detroit Mercy?
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Post by happy on May 31, 2022 8:18:57 GMT -5
Back in 1990 when I enrolled at University of Detroit, the merger back then was supposed to be with three schools. UD, Mercy College and Marygrove. The name was going to be University of Detroit. However, Marygrove pulled out at the last second. This caused the name change to UDM (without any discussion). By 1992 the year the name was official with the first graduating school (MBA, etc) it was rumored that the name would change back to University of Detroit in 25 or 30 years. Well here we are 2022. I hope the rumor was true and will be announced with the new president. Otherwise, the administration would need some research on the history and see that Marygrove will be necessary to pull back into the fold. At some point, we will need a capital fundraising plan.
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Post by Rogobob77 on May 31, 2022 8:48:29 GMT -5
Back in 1990 when I enrolled at University of Detroit, the merger back then was supposed to be with three schools. UD, Mercy College and Marygrove. The name was going to be University of Detroit. However, Marygrove pulled out at the last second. This caused the name change to UDM (without any discussion). By 1992 the year the name was official with the first graduating school (MBA, etc) it was rumored that the name would change back to University of Detroit in 25 or 30 years. Well here we are 2022. I hope the rumor was true and will be announced with the new president. Otherwise, the administration would need some research on the history and see that Marygrove will be pulled back into the fold at some point. I don’t think you are right about the UDM name change being made with “no discussion.” Fr. Muller’s history on the subject says the potential change was “a very sensitive and controversial issue.” Our consultants at the time (Young & Rubicam) recommended the new name as “an acceptable compromise.” I remember speaking briefly with Vowels at the ceremony five years or so ago when the “Detroit Mercy” double-down branding and new logo was announced. He is too much of a company man to convey his true feelings about the new direction (which would be carried over to Athletics branding), but my sense was he wasn’t pleased.
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Post by upbasketballfan on May 31, 2022 9:15:35 GMT -5
Back in 1990 when I enrolled at University of Detroit, the merger back then was supposed to be with three schools. UD, Mercy College and Marygrove. The name was going to be University of Detroit. However, Marygrove pulled out at the last second. This caused the name change to UDM (without any discussion). By 1992 the year the name was official with the first graduating school (MBA, etc) it was rumored that the name would change back to University of Detroit in 25 or 30 years. Well here we are 2022. I hope the rumor was true and will be announced with the new president. Otherwise, the administration would need some research on the history and see that Marygrove will be pulled back into the fold at some point. I don’t think you are right about the UDM name change being made with “no discussion.” Fr. Muller’s history on the subject says the potential change was “a very sensitive and controversial issue.” Our consultants at the time (Young & Rubicam) recommended the new name as “an acceptable compromise.” I remember speaking briefly with Vowels at the ceremony five years or so ago when the “Detroit Mercy” double-down branding and new logo was announced. He is too much of a company man to convey his true feelings about the new direction (which would be carried over to Athletics branding), but my sense was he wasn’t pleased. When a business is in expansion or survival mode the last thing you need is a yes man. A Yes man is just someone stealing your money and not doing what he was hired to do because he is afraid and questions his own abilities and worth.
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Post by Rogobob77 on May 31, 2022 9:23:45 GMT -5
I don’t think you are right about the UDM name change being made with “no discussion.” Fr. Muller’s history on the subject says the potential change was “a very sensitive and controversial issue.” Our consultants at the time (Young & Rubicam) recommended the new name as “an acceptable compromise.” I remember speaking briefly with Vowels at the ceremony five years or so ago when the “Detroit Mercy” double-down branding and new logo was announced. He is too much of a company man to convey his true feelings about the new direction (which would be carried over to Athletics branding), but my sense was he wasn’t pleased. When a business is in expansion or survival mode the last thing you need is a yes man. A Yes man is just someone stealing your money and not doing what he was hired to do because he is afraid and questions his own abilities and worth. Don’t really know if RV was a “yes man” behind the scenes. He may have made passioned and sustained arguments for staying with “Detroit Titans” in Athletics branding. But he wasn’t going to undermine his boss publicly saying he objected. That’s why I used the term “company man” in my remarks.
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Post by motorcitysam on May 31, 2022 10:21:25 GMT -5
My mistake on the baseball issue. I thought that happened after she was named AD, but i guess shexwas just working in the department at the time. I have heard from what I consider to be a reliable source that she had very little input into the McCallum hire. As far as the floor goes, did she make or advocate for the decision to name it after Vitale? If so, that's not a point in her favor, in my opinion. I would rather have a big donation than a game with St. John's and an opportunity for Vitale to come in and be celebrated without cracking open his check book. That was a huge opportunity to raise funds and the programs profile, but it certainly did more for DV than it did for the program. Plus we ticked off the Calihan family and some of them said they were done donating to the school. Was a nationally televised home game worth it? I don't think so. The last time we hosted a Big East team prior to that was DePaul in 2007. We hosted nationally ranked SEC team Mississippi State the same year we hosted St. John's. We've had a few nationally televised ESPN games since then. So, in other words, no, we haven’t hosted a Bog East team since Gaithersburg left, yes, Keri hired Ray, and no, Keri didn’t abolish baseball. Like I say, fundraising off of the court naming goes on the President and development department—the AD is not generally a fundraiser. Naming the court for Vitale was one of the few smart things we’ve done in the last 20 years. You think we should and could have gotten more, and maybe that’s true and maybe it’s not,, but we’ve gotten a fair bit of mileage from it. I doubt very very much that the AD negotiated any deal with Vitale, but frankly, if Vitale just said no, it was still probably a good move for us. And when Dan Gilbert finally coughs up that $30 million so many seem to cavalierly expect, we’ll rename the floor for him. Or anyone else with a couple million who’s been dying to have a bunch of collegiate transfer walking over his name. In the meantime, the Vitale connection is one of the few things that ever gets us positive attention anymore. I'll ignore the snark in your message but for the sake of clarity you can recognize that she took basketball off the radio and we've had several nationally televised games since 2011 that we didn't need a floor dedication to get, right? I am not giving her credit for the Ray hire, based on what I have been told. I understand if you object to that based on the hearsay rule, but I am confident about my source, so I will stick with that. You give Keri credit for the Vitale floor dedication, so I will ask again, was that her decision to whom the floor would be dedicated? You say ADs don't have the responsibility for fundraising. Are they normally the person deciding who gets such a big honor. How much of a role did she play in the whole thing? And finally, what mileage have we gotten off the naming of the court? Besides the one game with St. John's and a couple of days of publicity more than ten years ago. I know when home games are broadcast our announcers say "from Dick Vitale Court at Calihan Hall" which seems to be more mileage for Vitale than us. Has it helped recruiting? Are recruits impressed that our floor is named after a guy who coached here for four years when their grandparents were kids? Has it helped fundraising? Is the enrollment increase due to the name on the floor? What's the long term impact, besides the Calihan family still being ticked off? Georgetown fans don't have to wonder if they made the right decision naming the student services building after Big John. In addition to building the entire basketball program, he donated millions to the school over the years and was one of their great ambassadors. High Point named their floor after Tubby Smith, their most famous alumni who kicked off the fundraising for their new arena with a personal million dollar gift. That was in addition to the all of his previous donations since he graduated. Naming the floor after someone is a huge honor. If all we got from the floor dedication was some sporadic "positive attention" the effort was a waste of a great opportunity and no one involved in it deserves credit. Keri included.
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Post by Commissioner on May 31, 2022 11:15:02 GMT -5
So, in other words, no, we haven’t hosted a Bog East team since Gaithersburg left, yes, Keri hired Ray, and no, Keri didn’t abolish baseball. Like I say, fundraising off of the court naming goes on the President and development department—the AD is not generally a fundraiser. Naming the court for Vitale was one of the few smart things we’ve done in the last 20 years. You think we should and could have gotten more, and maybe that’s true and maybe it’s not,, but we’ve gotten a fair bit of mileage from it. I doubt very very much that the AD negotiated any deal with Vitale, but frankly, if Vitale just said no, it was still probably a good move for us. And when Dan Gilbert finally coughs up that $30 million so many seem to cavalierly expect, we’ll rename the floor for him. Or anyone else with a couple million who’s been dying to have a bunch of collegiate transfer walking over his name. In the meantime, the Vitale connection is one of the few things that ever gets us positive attention anymore. I'll ignore the snark in your message but for the sake of clarity you can recognize that she took basketball off the radio and we've had several nationally televised games since 2011 that we didn't need a floor dedication to get, right? I am not giving her credit for the Ray hire, based on what I have been told. I understand if you object to that based on the hearsay rule, but I am confident about my source, so I will stick with that. You give Keri credit for the Vitale floor dedication, so I will ask again, was that her decision to whom the floor would be dedicated? You say ADs don't have the responsibility for fundraising. Are they normally the person deciding who gets such a big honor. How much of a role did she play in the whole thing? And finally, what mileage have we gotten off the naming of the court? Besides the one game with St. John's and a couple of days of publicity more than ten years ago. I know when home games are broadcast our announcers say "from Dick Vitale Court at Calihan Hall" which seems to be more mileage for Vitale than us. Has it helped recruiting? Are recruits impressed that our floor is named after a guy who coached here four years ago when their grandparents were kids? Has it helped fundraising? Is the enrollment increase due to the name on the floor? What's the long term impact, besides the Calihan family still being ticked off? Georgetown fans don't have to wonder if they made the right decision naming the student services building after Big John. In addition to building the entire basketball program, he donated millions to the school over the years and was one of their great ambassadors. High Point named their floor after Tubby Smith, their most famous alumni who kicked off the fundraising for their new arena with a personal million dollar gift. That was in addition to the all of his previous donations since he graduated. Naming the floor after someone is a huge honor. If all we got from the floor dedication was some sporadic "positive attention" the effort was a waste of a great opportunity and no one involved in it deserves credit. Keri included. No, I don't believe we have been ESPN 1 since then for a regular season game. I'm not sure on that--you can look it up if you want to call me out. Sam, there's no snark. It's just that sometimes you seem so determined to take any comment anyone makes about anything as a swipe at Ray, or to call out your own bugaboos from the past--we get it, you're not a Dick Vitale fan--and then dig your heels in for no seeming reason. I never denied that Keri took us off the radio (I don't think that's nearly as big a thing as you do, but I never denied it nor tried to defend it). I'm glad Tubby worked out well for High Point. I'm less certain that that's a convincing indictment of Keri. As PTC said, no one was calling for a full review of her performance. That's you. PTC voiced complaints about the damage she did. I noted that there was something of a Shakespearean tragedy to her time, because absent her personal weakness she had a lot of strengths. You disagree because you don't think we got enough out of renaming the floor and because she cancelled baseball, and then didn't seem to want to back down. Let it go.
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Post by motorcitysam on May 31, 2022 11:35:51 GMT -5
My comment about Gaither was not a call for a full HR performance review of her tenure as AD. She carried on with her subordinate for almost 3 years during which time average home game attendance began to decline. Even the year of the St. John's game, average home attendance declined 8% from the prior season. Without the St. John's game, average home game attendance that season was 16% lower than the previous year. The Miss. State game drew a whopping 2200 fans. It was the publicity of the facts about her sudden departure that started events cascading. Yet average game attendance held in there until Ray's final season when the university announced its new branding strategy. Two years earlier, Vowels had announced a branding strategy that re-emphasized "Detroit" and said specifically that "Detroit Mercy" was not a permitted way to name our teams. Average game attendance rose 15% from 2013. When the university announced the new "Detroit Mercy" branding strategy in 2016, average attendance fell 16% from the prior year and the next season, it fell another 19%. In two years, average game attendance dropped 32.6% once the university forced the current branding strategy upon Athletics. Now, part of this decline can be attributed to the record of Bacari's first team. But not all of it. The consilience between the change in branding and the attendance is staring at us right there in the numbers. And the attendance gains in 2014 and 2015 under the "Detroit Titans" branding policy of Vowels are also right there in the numbers. And those gains were made even though Ray's teams in those years struggled with their W-L records compared to his previous teams. This gets back to my point about the importance of getting fans in the stands. And the role that attendance plays in making players want to come and play here rather than us being their Plan Z. In turn, this gets us back to our current situation. How do you generate excitement for players considering us such that it makes them want to play here? To get the better players who will produce more W's that, in turn, will draw more fans to watch our games, we must offer them facilities that are competitive with the ones that they will see when they visit other schools. That does not mean that we have to provide a luxurious power school experience. It does mean that we have to offer them something that is competitive. Otherwise, the excitement and winning will remain elsewhere. Housing, nutrition, sports medicine, conditioning, and fans in the stands. We won't get all at once. The reason we started with the Titan Club room is because that addresses nutrition by providing players with a newly remodeled room in which they can eat meals that will help them improve their physical conditioning. It's a start. But the university itself must step up to the plate here so that alumni and fans have something to sell to potential donors. Lots of good stuff in that post. Your mention of the Mississippi State game stood out to me, because I have always considered that a big marketing failure. We had the #15 team in the country visiting Calihan, and there was no special marketing effort, no promotion, not even specialized advertisements. It was a lost opportunity.
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Post by happy on May 31, 2022 11:38:31 GMT -5
Back in 1990 when I enrolled at University of Detroit, the merger back then was supposed to be with three schools. UD, Mercy College and Marygrove. The name was going to be University of Detroit. However, Marygrove pulled out at the last second. This caused the name change to UDM (without any discussion). By 1992 the year the name was official with the first graduating school (MBA, etc) it was rumored that the name would change back to University of Detroit in 25 or 30 years. Well here we are 2022. I hope the rumor was true and will be announced with the new president. Otherwise, the administration would need some research on the history and see that Marygrove will be pulled back into the fold at some point. I don’t think you are right about the UDM name change being made with “no discussion.” Fr. Muller’s history on the subject says the potential change was “a very sensitive and controversial issue.” Our consultants at the time (Young & Rubicam) recommended the new name as “an acceptable compromise.” I remember speaking briefly with Vowels at the ceremony five years or so ago when the “Detroit Mercy” double-down branding and new logo was announced. He is too much of a company man to convey his true feelings about the new direction (which would be carried over to Athletics branding), but my sense was he wasn’t pleased. Thanks for the clarification. I meant that it seemed to me that there wasn't going to be a discussion after the name was announced UDM. In other words, the student body didn't have a chance to have a say in the name change talks. Probably because the administration would have known, game over. I realize the University is private and can do what they want. However, you have to accept that will turn some donors off. Nevertheless, optimism is a happiness magnet and I remain to stay positive.
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Post by fan on May 31, 2022 12:20:39 GMT -5
I think the downward spiral started with Kinsman, he reminded me of an HS AD, always running around with a chain full of keys, and he always collected the unopened Cokes from the press table after the game, for the next game. He was "small-time" and took the program "small-time".
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Post by Rogobob77 on May 31, 2022 13:59:08 GMT -5
I think the downward spiral started with Kinsman, he reminded me of an HS AD, always running around with a chain full of keys, and he always collected the unopened Cokes from the press table after the game, for the next game. He was "small-time" and took the program "small-time". I must be older than you. The downward spiral began with Geracioti’s tenure as AD. That was early 1980s, he killed all the momentum from the Vitale era through a series of poor decisions.
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Post by motorcitysam on May 31, 2022 14:08:37 GMT -5
I'll ignore the snark in your message but for the sake of clarity you can recognize that she took basketball off the radio and we've had several nationally televised games since 2011 that we didn't need a floor dedication to get, right? I am not giving her credit for the Ray hire, based on what I have been told. I understand if you object to that based on the hearsay rule, but I am confident about my source, so I will stick with that. You give Keri credit for the Vitale floor dedication, so I will ask again, was that her decision to whom the floor would be dedicated? You say ADs don't have the responsibility for fundraising. Are they normally the person deciding who gets such a big honor. How much of a role did she play in the whole thing? And finally, what mileage have we gotten off the naming of the court? Besides the one game with St. John's and a couple of days of publicity more than ten years ago. I know when home games are broadcast our announcers say "from Dick Vitale Court at Calihan Hall" which seems to be more mileage for Vitale than us. Has it helped recruiting? Are recruits impressed that our floor is named after a guy who coached here four years ago when their grandparents were kids? Has it helped fundraising? Is the enrollment increase due to the name on the floor? What's the long term impact, besides the Calihan family still being ticked off? Georgetown fans don't have to wonder if they made the right decision naming the student services building after Big John. In addition to building the entire basketball program, he donated millions to the school over the years and was one of their great ambassadors. High Point named their floor after Tubby Smith, their most famous alumni who kicked off the fundraising for their new arena with a personal million dollar gift. That was in addition to the all of his previous donations since he graduated. Naming the floor after someone is a huge honor. If all we got from the floor dedication was some sporadic "positive attention" the effort was a waste of a great opportunity and no one involved in it deserves credit. Keri included. No, I don't believe we have been ESPN 1 since then for a regular season game. I'm not sure on that--you can look it up if you want to call me out. Sam, there's no snark. It's just that sometimes you seem so determined to take any comment anyone makes about anything as a swipe at Ray, or to call out your own bugaboos from the past--we get it, you're not a Dick Vitale fan--and then dig your heels in for no seeming reason. I never denied that Keri took us off the radio (I don't think that's nearly as big a thing as you do, but I never denied it nor tried to defend it). I'm glad Tubby worked out well for High Point. I'm less certain that that's a convincing indictment of Keri. As PTC said, no one was calling for a full review of her performance. That's you. PTC voiced complaints about the damage she did. I noted that there was something of a Shakespearean tragedy to her time, because absent her personal weakness she had a lot of strengths. You disagree because you don't think we got enough out of renaming the floor and because she cancelled baseball, and then didn't seem to want to back down. Let it go. Okay, so now you want to add a qualification, not just a "nationally televised game" but a "nationally televised game on this particular station." Got it. Don't think I will bother doing the research on that. I'm not "calling you out" or "digging my heels in". I thought we were in the middle of a conversation. Contrary to what you might think, I am not obligated to agree with you. It's a discussion board. I genuinely wanted to know what you considered to be the mileage we got out of naming the court after Vitale. I will forego making any personal comments in response to your personal comments about me, but I will say this: Sure it was super impressive and authoritative how you typed "Let it go" on its own line but last time I checked, I don't work for you. I will let it go if and when I want to. If you don't want to read or respond, you can block me or delete my account. It's your board. I will survive without it.
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Post by bigchuck on May 31, 2022 14:32:50 GMT -5
When a business is in expansion or survival mode the last thing you need is a yes man. A Yes man is just someone stealing your money and not doing what he was hired to do because he is afraid and questions his own abilities and worth. Don’t really know if RV was a “yes man” behind the scenes. He may have made passioned and sustained arguments for staying with “Detroit Titans” in Athletics branding. But he wasn’t going to undermine his boss publicly saying he objected. That’s why I used the term “company man” in my remarks. I still have some shirts with a "D" that was the athletic logo that RV promoted early in his tenure. He did try and promote the D and many athletes had the logo on their jackets and gear. That all disappeared when Mercy became mandatory on all gear. There is no way he could have been happy. I also remember being at a pre-game reception in Nashville before we got mauled by Vandy. Dr. Garibaldi was talking to some local money assuring them that the UD name would soon be back. That of course did not happen. Both men put efforts into marketing on the Detroit name. The Board decided otherwise. This goes along with ptc's analysis. RV had two years of marketing groundwork and progress disappear in one bad decision by the Board. I am not a fan of renaming the school, but believe Detroit's College Team would have been an effective marketing program and should have remained in place.
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Post by ptctitan on May 31, 2022 17:47:33 GMT -5
If Arby's can start selling hamburgers, our university's sports teams can play as the Detroit Titans. And we can build better facilities.
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Post by upsetcoach on Jun 1, 2022 22:04:16 GMT -5
It's the board. The board members/trustees are old fart in the bottles. How do we remove them?
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