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Post by ptctitan on Feb 8, 2019 6:04:54 GMT -5
I have always been a proponent of winning our way out of the HL and pulling it up in the conference rankings by our strong play.
No more.
HL basketball is ugly to watch. I don't even like watching the better games; e.g., UIC vs Wright State or IUPUI and NKU. It exposes too many players to needless injury by virtue of poor officiating. Prime example, the best team in the league, NKU, drew 3025 fans to the game last night. They don't even like to watch their own team.
The league has moved its conference tournament to a former cow palace and agricultural exhibition hall that is also the home court of one of its member schools so that it is closer to the members of the conference to whom the league caters, NKU, Wright State, and UIC. The league caters to those schools because the league has decided that those three schools are its best shots at tournament money.
Our school has nothing in common with any other league member. We are a small private school with about 2500 full-time undergraduate students and about 3000 part-time undergrad and grad students. Every other school in the league is a mid-sized publicly funded, State supported university with larger student enrollments. The HL does not even play lacrosse, which is our strongest non-revenue sport.
We have one of the best freshmen in the nation. HL officials allow him to be mugged in every game in clear violation of the rules. Especially when the opponent is a pre-season favorite to earn a tournament slot.
It's time to take our chips and seek another conference. HL is a bush league. In men's basketball, it is dangerous and unfriendly to skilled players. Its Thursday-Saturday travel partner schedule exposes too many players to injury from fatigue in games where the rule is overly-physical play. I would never go out of my way to watch an HL men's basketball game in which the Titans were not playing. I can go watch a playground game and watch everyone mug each other there at no cost of parking, cable TV subscriptions, or tickets.
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Post by Commissioner on Feb 8, 2019 8:00:36 GMT -5
But where? That's the problem. I agree with everything you've said. But where do we go?
I've suggested the best home might be the MAAC, where we already play men's lacrosse. It would raise some of our travel costs, but it consists of all private schools, 7 of which are Catholic. The MAAC is having a terrible year, and is currently ranked a dismal 29th in conference NET (the Horizon is 20th). Last year, however, the MAAC was 21st in conference RPI, the Horizon 26th. The MAAC was 15th in conference RPI 2 years ago (the HL 18th), and 20th the year before that (to the HL's 18th. It has 11 teams, so it would seem there could be space, and most conferences prefer to operate with an even number of teams. Conference members include Siena, Iona, Canisius, Niagara, Manhattan, and similar schools. Our recruits could probably live with a trip to Niagara falls and New York City each year.
Of course, I'd prefer the MVC or ideally the Atlantic 10, but I just don't see either happening. The Big East? No way. (To head off Titan Mac, I'm not saying we shouldn't try. I'm just saying I doubt it happens. There's no harm in asking the prettiest girl in the room, but you have to be prepared for rejection.)
Another conference I've suggested is the Patriot. It's an even lesser conference, and would have even more travel, but it's a collection of eastern private schools (plus Army and Navy) of high academic quality. It used to not allow schools to offer athletic scholarships, but it does now. It has two Catholic members, Holy Cross and Loyola of Maryland. Other schools in its 10 member makeup include Bucknell, Boston University, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, and American. Only Boston University (15,000) and American (6000) have an undergrad enrollment in excess of 5000. It sponsors men's and women's lacrosse. Again, recruits could probably live with an annual trip to Boston, Philly, and Washington.
I don't see the Ohio Valley or Summit as realistic options for numerous reasons. I suppose the 10 member Colonial, which includes 4 private schools (Drexel, Hofstra, Northeastern, and Elon) plus William & Mary, would be a possibility. Five of its members have enrollment in excess of 20,000.
Other choices seem even worse fits in terms of geography and similar types of schools. I suppose I would join the American, if they'd have us, but it wants to be a football conference. It sprawls from Orlando to Wichita and Tulsa, and from Houston to Connecticut. It has schools with over 50,000 enrollment, and 9 of its current 12 members are public. No lacrosse. From there the options get worse.
Now and then I hear fans talk of a conference of privates drawn from the middle of the country--Detroit, Valpo, Evansville, Bradley, Drake, Loyola, Belmont, perhaps Lipscomb, Oral Roberts, Denver. Not gonna happen, in part because it won't get an automatic NCAA bid for several years.
The options, I'm afraid, seem very limited. I do think we should be trying with all our might to move.
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Post by Commissioner on Feb 8, 2019 8:38:00 GMT -5
To follow up on my earlier comment, how might we stack up in the MAAC in terms of basketball budget, enrollment, attendance, and endowment. The endowment numbers are approximate and may be dated, but they still give a general sense of things. School | Location | Type/Afflilation | 2018 Budget | Under. Enroll | 2018 Atten. | Endowment | Canisius | Buffalo, NY | Jesuit | $1,673,040 | 2398 | 1280 | $96,000,000 | Detroit | Detroit, MI | Jesuit-Mercy | $2,350,993 | 2672 | 1240 | $51,600,000 | Fairfield | Fairfield, CT | Jesuit | $2,582,865 | 4113 | 1347 | $324,000,000 | Iona | New Rochelle, NY | Christian Bros. | $2,514,963 | 3178 | 1637 | $52,500,000 | Manhattan | New York, NY | Christian Bros. | $2,337,236 | 3195 | 1094 | $76,000,000 | Marist | Poughkeepsie | Marist Bros. | $1,803,822 | 5038 | 1224 | $213,000,000 | Monmouth | West Long Branch, NJ | Private, Non-Sectarian | $2,690,690 | 4634 | 2336 | $60,400,000 | Niagara | Lewiston, NY | Vincentian | $1,796,129 | 3300 | 1148 | $72,200,000 | Quinnipiac | Hamden, CT | Private, Non-Sectarian | $2,609,446 | 6500 | 1587 | $387,964,000 | Rider | Lawrenceville, NJ | Private, Non-Sectarian | $2,038,734 | 4400 | 1553 | $57,300,000 | St. Peter's | Jersey City, NJ | Jesuit | $1,490,850 | 2672 | 649 | $31,500,000 | Siena | Loudonville, NY | Franciscan | $3,102,278 | 3214 | 5968 | $120,700,000 |
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Post by ptctitan on Feb 8, 2019 9:03:29 GMT -5
Until now, I had thought the best course of action was to remain in the HL and strive to become its Gonzaga. Now, I support an active effort to move to a different conference. I don't expect us to be able to pull out immediately and pick our landing spot.
However, now we have something to offer. We have the highest scoring freshman player in the nation who is also in position to break Steph Curry's NCAA record for made 3 point shots by a freshman. We have a good head coach for the men's program. We have a good budget for a mid-major. We just completed successfully raising $100 million for a capital improvement program. And part of that capital will go to athletics. We field teams in 17 sports.
If we must play in a low mid-major, we should try to find one that is better aligned with our school and our athletic programs. The HL's view of how the game of basketball should be played is bush league. Clown car. It is very clear to me that the HL (as a league) does not want us to succeed and represent the conference in any postseason play. The refusal of the majority of HL officiating crews to enforce the rules even-handedly since AD won so many consecutive league awards proves that my inference is likely accurate. I thought that after a night's sleep, I might wake up today less angry about the HL. Alas. Didn't happen. It's not that we lost and that NKU played well. It's that the 4th consecutive set of officials clearly demonstrated ignorance of the rules.
Maybe a new conference won't be much better. But a conference with at least a group of private schools would provide us something in common. As an institution of higher learning, we have nothing in common with the other members of the HL.
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Post by Commissioner on Feb 8, 2019 10:36:52 GMT -5
I'd try for the MVC or A10 still. But I do think the MAAC would be an acceptable landing spot. If we just wanted to be with schools more aligned with our values, size, academic mission and standards, it might be good. If both leagues are doomed to be "1 bid conferences," it may not matter if the Horizon is marginally better. (Nor am I sure it will be marginally better in the future).
I've noted just a few factors in the little chart above. I don't know how much more we're talking about in terms of travel costs and time for students. You'd want to examine the commitment that schools in each league are making, and you'd be trying to assess the direction of each league. The MAAC is way down this year. But over the longer term, does it have more potential, more momentum? We'd certainly have no geographic rivals in the MAAC, although I think if we got ourselves consistently competitive, games with other Catholic schools like Iona and Siena could become serious rivalries.
The A10 likely would feel we're just not good enough for them. They're already at 14 teams and a few years ago--when Butler and Xavier left for the Big East--they made a public decision to expand south along the east coast rather than further into the midwest. So St. Louis and Dayton hang out here like doppelgangers, with Duquesne as a fueling stop, while the A10 has added Davidson, George Mason, and VCU, Since the most likely schools to leave the A10 are probably Dayton and St. Louis, that may make them further hesitant about moving west, but maybe that will change. What do we offer them? A basketball program that has been bad for the last several years, weak attendance, an historic but dated facility, a significant but declining market, and a recruitment territory that is also on the decline. It's mostly a private school league (George Mason, VCU, Rhode Island, and UMass are the exceptions). We can note that Duquesne, La Salle, and Fordham all averaged under 2000 in attendance last year. There are some other old facilities in the league. But to compare us to some of its weaker programs isn't exactly a selling point.
But we do have to move. Our assets keep wasting. Calihan gets older, not newer, as does our fan base. Our meaningful history fades further into the past each year. Will there be a true, lasting Detroit renaissance? I don't know. If there is, of course, it will help, but if there's not? As you note, PTC, the Davises are an asset. But their time life span is short.
The MVC only has 10 schools, so they can grow. But why us over Milwaukee, Wright State, or NKU? Especially the latter two they might view as healthier programs with better facilities. They've just added two of our old Horizon private schools, and if they go to 12 they may want to keep that balance. We'd stretch their geography. Maybe they want to do that, maybe not. I'm not sure how much better the MVC is--they had 1 bid last year, and are looking at 1 bid this year. But they're certainly ranked higher and have more potential, even if they remain a 1 bid league. Yeah, I'd rather see Valpo and Loyola on our schedule than IUPUI and UIC; Bradley than Milwaukee, etc.
It'll be tough to do.
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Post by calihanmole on Feb 8, 2019 11:37:05 GMT -5
Here we go again, complaining about the league The topic never ends, it seems immune from fatigue
It’s always someone else’s fault or bad officiating If you want to join another league you’ll be forever waiting
The Valley and the A-10 don’t want us, or so they say Forget about MAAC, it’s just too far away
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Post by Commissioner on Feb 8, 2019 11:46:30 GMT -5
Yeah, but when your team is playing so poorly, its a pleasant diversion to think about something else.
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Post by calihanmole on Feb 8, 2019 12:11:31 GMT -5
Very true. One thing when you look at a map of the MAAC, is that they have a very condensed membership with two relative outliers near Buffalo. They have a nice setup and nearly all their conference play can be done with short charter bus trips. That’s a big savings financially when you add up all the sports. I honestly don’t know what we currently do for HL play (bus vs planes), but all in all we have a relatively light (and affordable) travel commitment. Sure, there are numerous examples of teams traveling a lot (nearly everyone in the Summit and WAC are good examples). But those insane travel schedules (UT-Rio Grande Valley flying to Seattle U for conference games) are born of the reality that there are more colleges in the eastern half of the country. And those Summit and WAC schools are dying to play better and get invited to a new conference that doesn’t require the travel believe me.
I get the frustration. I disagree with the feelings that the officiating in HL is out to get us. There’s no grand conspiracy to bring down the Titans. The games are called pretty loose, I’ll give you guys that. But we are just a young team with some thin bodies and a lot of growing up to do.
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Post by Commissioner on Feb 8, 2019 12:48:22 GMT -5
I don't think there's a conspiracy to bring down the Titans. I do think that Horizon officials allow for a physical style of play that was supposed to be reined in a few years ago, and that it is particularly harmful to the Titans. But the real bottom line problem is that we don't have a lot of talent, AD notwithstanding. We've got just enough (thanks largely to AD) to sometimes make us fans think we could be lot better.
P.S. Mole: If you haven't noticed at the recruiting site Verbal Commits, the top headline relative to the Titans is still the inclusion of Rick Pitino in the coaching search.
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Post by titantarheel on Feb 8, 2019 12:52:50 GMT -5
I get the frustration. I disagree with the feelings that the officiating in HL is out to get us. There’s no grand conspiracy to bring down the Titans. The games are called pretty loose, I’ll give you guys that. But we are just a young team with some thin bodies and a lot of growing up to do. +1 +1,000 It's a bit 'tin foil hat' to think there's some big top to bottom conspiracy from the HL offices to the officials to make things less favorable to the Titans. Or to tilt things in favor of other schools. Heck we had the tourney a few miles from campus for the past few years (and took zero advantage of that) The tourney in Indy is geographically very central for the conference as a whole. I don't have a huge problem with that locale and solution, since LCA couldn't be a bigger a success. Its not perfect to be at a member school, or the days they are on, but are there CLEAR better options out there readily available to switch to? As for clutching and grabbing of Antoine...I do not disagree that teams are getting away with everything they can to slow him down. I think Coach Davis and Vowels ought to be more vocal (I presume they are speaking up) on this topic to the HL. The Jordan Rules were made to slow down MJ, and the AD rules are out there and in play to slow him down. Now, we either hope officiating calls more of that going forward or Coach & co adapts to it. I don't know that the HL officials are any worse, or better, than the average non-power conference official. I have no reason to believe they are. Officials are human so there's always that element. If someone showed me data that the HL completely low balls compensation for their officials, then I might start to believe there are inferior folks out there in stripes. No one is holding us, Titan Basketball, down. It comes down to talent and winning. Unfortunately we haven't had much of that around here in recent years, and this season both have showed in fits and starts. And if we want to 'take our chips' and go elsewhere, who would have us? What chips do we have? What is actually better for us than the HL right now? And would switching conferences actually solve anything for UDM or advance the university or its athletics? And what is becoming an annual tradition, we are currently sitting in the cellar of the HL's McCafferty standings that measures success across all HL sports --> www.horizonleague.org/sports/2018/11/21/McCafferty1819.aspx?path=general We aren't hanging banners up for Conference titles across any of our sports, even the ones not in the HL such as Lacrosse. A rant on Thurs/Sat schedule is also a new hot take I haven't heard before, even on the other board! PTC, I know you're a good fan and you are completely frustrated. It makes sense with where you are at. Coach Davis has us on the rise, I just believe that and early returns suggest it to be true. My counter points are in nature to discuss not to disregard what you're saying - trust you take it as such. Chin up PTC, have an extra cold one this weekend!
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Post by calihanmole on Feb 8, 2019 13:47:09 GMT -5
P.S. Mole: If you haven't noticed at the recruiting site Verbal Commits, the top headline relative to the Titans is still the inclusion of Rick Pitino in the coaching search. LOL, I have noticed that. If you go in a web browser and search “Tony Paul Twitter” the second link (after his official twitter) is usually the tweet where Paul has to retract the Pitino rumor. I find that funny. One of my favorite moments this season was during a Titan away game when the announcers mentioned the Pitino rumor. And, last night, when the NKU announcers mentioned we hired Davis late, I was on the edge of my seat almost sure they were going to mention the Pitino story. But, to my chagrin, they decided to keep talking about “stufferinos” instead. I’m glad we can all laugh about this now. I still have no idea how Tony Paul took the bait with NO corroboration from someone officially linked to the university. Interestingly enough, Paul tweeted a few weeks ago that we had a handshake deal for the coaching position (I assume Bronkema) but then things fell apart and we ultimately got Davis. Is it possible we have The Mole to at least partly thank for having this coach and also one of the best players in the country?! I like to think so.
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Post by ptctitan on Feb 9, 2019 10:09:26 GMT -5
I'm talking more about the overall tenor and philosophy of the HL officiating; and, how it affects the type of basketball that is played in the HL. And the types of referees hired and assigned to games. They reflect the philosophy of the league's supervisor of officials.
In the case of the HL, the supervisor of officials is called the coordinator. He is actually employed by the Men's Basketball Collegiate Officiating Consortium, LLC. This is a group that centralizes officiating for a lot of leagues across the Midwest and northeast. The HL joined this group in August 2016.
The consortium has assigned a former referee named Mike Kitts as coordinator of officials for the HL. He held or still holds that position for the MAAC. Kitts is from Syracuse, NY and was suspended from officiating the Big East tournament in 2010 for missing a blown call at the end of a game. This was the year after he was named the referee of the year. He once ejected Bob Huggins and the U Cincy broadcaster from a game in 2003. And his nickname by Big East players was "Double T" because he liked to call lots of technical fouls. There was friction in Syracuse because he held down a city job there while traveling the country officiating basketball games. Shortly after his suspension from the Big East, he left and became the MAAC's supervisor; and, then went to the Consortium. I do not know if there is any history between Kitts and Devendorf.
Now, I'm not saying there is a grand conspiracy specifically directed at us. But I am saying that the coordinator and the league get lobbied by the other coaches. And the coordinator's philosophy of how a game should be officiated is reflected in the individuals he hires and the crews that he assigns to our games.
Since he became coordinator, the league has become more physical and more and more games resemble scrums rather than basketball. Since he became coordinator, the new rules on hand checking and blocking off-the-ball cuts have been de-emphasized. Is it any coincidence that the teams that have risen to the top in the HL are bigger, slower, and more physical? I think not. And you wonder why the first two years of Motor City Madness saw the favorites knocked off early? I suggest that officiating philosophy played a role in those results.
As a result, the overall quality of basketball in the HL has deteriorated because the officiating favors one style over another. Thus, there is little room for a coach like a Felton or Davis who seeks to play a faster, skill-based game rather than a more physical game.
In that light, on Thursday night, we are assigned a crew who, in the first half, twice let McDonald knock our rebounder off his already established spot. They twice let the defender run over the back of AD when he was catching an inbounds pass. And they let an NKU defender run into AD late after he stole the ball and caused AD to lose the ball. Every time AD or Josh cut off the ball, they were held or blocked by two players. At the end of this carnage, this Kitts crew had called only 4 fouls on NKU.
And then we get to the end of the game; and, the technical. By officials selected by a coordinator who once ejected a radio broadcaster for criticizing one of his calls.
Yes, this year's Titans are young, thin, and inexperienced. Yes, Coach Davis really fights for our team on the sidelines with the referees. And, yes, the referees were not he main reason why we lost at NKU. But they were a big factor in why we lost by 30. In why we could not pass the ball. In why we could not score. Their philosophy favored a physical man defense over a zone. And, it is clear that they were looking for another shoe event on which to impose a technical foul. There was clear favoritism shown NKU by the officials. Capped off by a bush league technical.
So, yes. I don't know where to go. But I do know that the long term goal of our school ought not to be staying in the HL and winning there. It is a bush league.
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