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Post by calihanmole on May 8, 2019 19:41:30 GMT -5
One could argue that schools with higher academic standards are more likely to have issues like the one we are facing because we don’t give students or student athletes free passes.
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Post by calihanmole on May 8, 2019 19:43:52 GMT -5
ptc, has the ban actually been handed down? Every article I’ve seen says we’ve been notified of falling 10 points short but nothing explicitly says the NCAA has actually handed down the sanction.
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Post by ptctitan on May 8, 2019 19:53:12 GMT -5
The 920 number is a four-year average of the last two years of Ray's tenure and the two years of Bacari's tenure. That number is a product of those two coaches. The APR's involved in this year's number were:
2014-15: 982 Ray 2015-16: 900 Ray 2016-17: 960 Bacari 2017-18: 826 Bacari
My opinion about both coaches was based upon those numbers. You can find this data on the NCAA's website. My main point was that the 920 average is computed from those two coaches' teams - not Mike Davis' team from 2018-19. If Bacari is to blame for the 826, then Ray is to blame for the 900. Both men get credit for their above-average numbers. Ray at 982 and Bacari at 960.
In Ray's complete tenure, he had only two bad APR's. In 2012-13, it was 922; and, the 900 in 2015-16. All other years were great. And he even had a perfect 1000 in one year.
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Post by ptctitan on May 8, 2019 20:04:45 GMT -5
ptc, has the ban actually been handed down? Every article I’ve seen says we’ve been notified of falling 10 points short but nothing explicitly says the NCAA has actually handed down the sanction. The actual paperwork on the NCAA website states the penalty and says that we are eligible for the penalty. There are also footnotes that indicate that Level 1 penalties can be waived. I understand that the penalty will be appealed. In looking at how our APR could have plummeted to 826 last year, the only way I can arrive at that number is if two players who left the roster in good academic standing and before their 4th year, lost their retention points for not enrolling in a new school. The NCAA formula views a player who leaves and does not enroll right away in a new school as a dropout and does not account for players who may transfer but not enroll in a new school in the next year.
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Post by Commissioner on May 8, 2019 22:04:17 GMT -5
One could argue that schools with higher academic standards are more likely to have issues like the one we are facing because we don’t give students or student athletes free passes. Yes, you could, but you'd still look stupid in light of the circumstances.
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Post by calihanmole on May 8, 2019 22:12:12 GMT -5
One could argue that schools with higher academic standards are more likely to have issues like the one we are facing because we don’t give students or student athletes free passes. Yes, you could, but you'd still look stupid in light of the circumstances. Yup, you’re right! But if we lose the appeal I’ll just give up on the program. I have three other alma maters and one can only take so much I suppose.
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Post by Commissioner on May 8, 2019 22:17:47 GMT -5
Actually, we're screwed more than first appears. Next year, our 4-year average drops off the 2015 score. The score that year was 982. That's going to be hard to replace--let alone improve on. So it's quite likely we're still below 930 on our 4-year average next year.
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Post by ptctitan on May 9, 2019 3:39:59 GMT -5
Actually, we're screwed more than first appears. Next year, our 4-year average drops off the 2015 score. The score that year was 982. That's going to be hard to replace--let alone improve on. So it's quite likely we're still below 930 on our 4-year average next year. Under the NCAA's APR formula, in 2017-18, we had 23 possible points and earned 19. The puts and takes for the seniors who graduated or completed their eligibility appear to have reduced our total points possible from 26 to 23. 19 of 23 creates a percentage of 0.826 x 1000 = 826. Since Ballantyne and JJJ were in good standing when they received their releases to transfer, they would have counted for one more point each had they transferred to LIU then and enrolled in LIU for the fall semester. That would have given us 21 of 23 points creating an APR of 913 and a 4-year average of 939. But since they did not enroll in another school last year, they counted -0- points for the Spring 2018 semester and that's what caused our 4-year average to fall under 930. So, if the school can appeal successfully and get the NCAA to restore those points due to the fact that both players have now transferred to LIU, then we will not encounter the same issue for the next 3 years. It appears that in creating the APR formula, the NCAA did not consider that transfers in good standing would decide to take a sabbatical for one-year while they were ineligible to play anyway before selecting and enrolling in their new schools. I think our school has a strong appeal position and I would not be surprised to see the penalty waived and the points restored if those two players enroll at LIU.
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Post by titantarheel on May 9, 2019 9:39:57 GMT -5
Yes, you could, but you'd still look stupid in light of the circumstances. Yup, you’re right! But if we lose the appeal I’ll just give up on the program. I have three other alma maters and one can only take so much I suppose. That's fine if that's what it takes to make you take your ball and go home Tacitus. You can also leave this kind of hyperbole to the other board where you are comfortable in creating several new threads and generally fanning the flames on the topic.
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Post by upbasketballfan on May 9, 2019 11:28:04 GMT -5
Yup, you’re right! But if we lose the appeal I’ll just give up on the program. I have three other alma maters and one can only take so much I suppose. That's fine if that's what it takes to make you take your ball and go home Tacitus. You can also leave this kind of hyperbole to the other board where you are comfortable in creating several new threads and generally fanning the flames on the topic. This will all weed out for the best. The last couple of years we have been our own worst enemy. I have never wanted to plan an extended battle with someone at my side with questionable staying power. I personally think that ball titantarheel is referring to has a little too much air in it
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 12:16:27 GMT -5
However this whole thing works out (and you never know with the NCAA), I want to give many thanks to PTC for all his hard work and insight on the whole (unpleasant) matter. It is greatly appreciated and if the University needs someone to take up the fight on their behalf, I nominate him - we'd be sure to win or at least die trying
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Post by titantarheel on May 9, 2019 14:25:10 GMT -5
However this whole thing works out (and you never know with the NCAA), I want to give many thanks to PTC for all his hard work and insight on the whole (unpleasant) matter. It is greatly appreciated and if the University needs someone to take up the fight on their behalf, I nominate him - we'd be sure to win or at least die trying I second this Scout! PTC broke the bad news, so he risked being shot as the messenger. He also followed up with lots of good info on our situation, a reminder on the details of how the APR is calculated, plus the insight of how JB and JJJ impacted us by hanging out at Spire this past year rather than in actual university. Hats off to PTC for presenting solid, factual information and intel on the situation - especially one that could be fairly significant/embarrassing to the university.
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Post by JDetroitTitan on May 9, 2019 14:51:17 GMT -5
How about Tariiq Jones would he also be contributing to the 0 APR (I don't think he is enrolled anywhere) like Jack and JJJR
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Post by motorcitysam on May 9, 2019 16:48:44 GMT -5
Let's pump the breaks on putting all the focus on the APR issues on JB and JJJ. I don't know where JB was this past season, but he was announced as a new addition to the LIU-Brooklyn program in November, with their coach making the announcement. Are we sure he wasn't enrolled there last year? Also, are we sure that both JJ and JB left in good academic standing? As we learned, Jaleel Hogan couldn't transfer last summer because of academic issues. A similar situation could explain why JJJ wasn't in a D1 program last season.
Also, I'm no APR expert, but I imagine that Hogan and Tariq Jones becoming ineligible after the first semester impacted the APR as well. Let's not gloss over that as we comment on JB and JJJ's role in the issue.
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Post by ptctitan on May 9, 2019 20:35:29 GMT -5
Let's pump the breaks on putting all the focus on the APR issues on JB and JJJ. I don't know where JB was this past season, but he was announced as a new addition to the LIU-Brooklyn program in November, with their coach making the announcement. Are we sure he wasn't enrolled there last year? Also, are we sure that both JJ and JB left in good academic standing? As we learned, Jaleel Hogan couldn't transfer last summer because of academic issues. A similar situation could explain why JJJ wasn't in a D1 program last season. Also, I'm no APR expert, but I imagine that Hogan and Tariq Jones becoming ineligible after the first semester impacted the APR as well. Let's not gloss over that as we comment on JB and JJJ's role in the issue. In theory, sam, I'd agree with you. The reason that I don't is the school's official statement that this was a player retention issue - not a failure to graduate or make academic progress issue. From today's Detroit NewsThe Detroit Mercy athletic department explained the low score in a press release: “The men’s basketball score of 920 was a product of student-athlete retention from the four-year period due to the changes in the coaching staffs. This score was not the result of a decrease in academic or graduation success. It is important to note that 50% of the APR score is based on retention, with the other 50% based on academic eligibility.” For retention in 2017-18, you're talking Jones, Ballantyne, and Jackson. Also, Ballantyne is listed only as a verbal commit to LIU. He was not on LIU's roster last season like Corey Allen was on Georgia State's roster. Jackson is listed as a signee. So, I understand your point. I think the school's press release is pointing us to the cause without naming names. So, maybe we would not be subject to the penalty if only two of those three players had not enrolled. But the score was way too low for that to be the case. At least, this is my understanding of the APR system together with my understanding of the meaning of the school's press release cited above. A lot of posters questioned why those two players never enrolled in a college for the last academic year. Whatever the reasons, it appears that their decisions not to enroll really hurt us.
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