|
Post by Commissioner on May 9, 2019 22:26:42 GMT -5
If we lost a retention point on both Ballantyne and Triple J because they did not enroll elsewhere last year, yes, that would have been enough to push us below the limit. It is possible, as Sam suggests, that they may not have been eligible right away, in which case the loss of the point was legit, but it does sound, as PTC says, as if they were in good academic standing.
Tariq Jones flunked out, which cost us a lot. Jaleel's ineligibility hurt, too. Did he stay in school, or did he also flunk/drop out after fall term? Anybody recall?
|
|
|
Post by Commissioner on May 9, 2019 22:58:26 GMT -5
I keep trying to figure out how we got an 826 for 2018. Each player on scholarship has a potential 2 points each semester--one for staying eligible, one for staying in school. An 826 score requires 38 of 46 possible points. I can figure out any other combo that does it. In 2018, we had 13 scholarship players, meaning 26 points for fall semester. McFolley - 2 of 2 Blackshear - 2 of 2 Black - 2/2 Allen - 2/2 I. Jones - 2/2 Prince - 2/2 Chatman - 2/2 T. Jones - 0/2 Hogan - 0/2 JJJ - 2/2 Ballantyne - 2/2 Eichler - 2/2 Long - 2/2
that's 22 out of 26.
In the spring, If Jones and Hogan were gone, we'd have 11 players for 22 possible points. Somehow we have to lose 2 more points to get to 46 possible. I wonder if
Spring: McFolley - 2 of 2 Blackshear - 2 of 2 Black - 2/2 Allen - 2/2 I. Jones - 2/2 Prince - 2/2 Chatman - 1/2 JJJ - 1/2 Ballantyne - 1/2 Eichler - 2/2 Long - 2/2
That would give us 19 of 22, for a total of 41 out of 48. That's too many possible points, and too high a score. Was anyone else ineligible after spring? Maybe grad transfers only count as 1 point for staying in school? That would drop us to a possible 46 points, but we'd still need to lose three actual points. I'm also not sure if we lose a point for Chatman going pro.
I can determine, as PTC already did, that we must have scored 38 of 46 possible points. I can't figure out either a) where we lose 2 possible points in addition to the 4 lost on Hogan and T Jones not being around in the spring, and b) where we lose 8 points total--I've got us losing 4 for Tariq and Hogan in the fall, and then potentially 1 each for Chatman, Jackson, and Ballantyne not returning to school, for a total of 7. Maybe Chatman was ineligible when he entered the draft?
|
|
|
Post by ptctitan on May 10, 2019 4:21:22 GMT -5
Commissioner - Chatman, Black, and Isaiah Jones graduated. Link to University Press Release on Titans in Graduation Ceremony Hogan was classified a senior. So, we only would have lost 1 point if he were academically ineligible in 2nd semester. Prince was obviously academically eligible in the second semester and had no more eligibility left as a player. He would not have cost us retention points. Allen and Eichler transferred normally. Both enrolled in their new colleges in the next regular term. Both were listed on the rosters of their new schools. Both were in academic good standing. Blackshear, McFolley, and Long were in good academic standing and remained at UD. That leaves 3 players: Tariiq Jones, Jermaine Jackson, Jr., and Jack Ballantyne. The last two players were in good standing academically. All 3 of those players did not enroll at any school in the next regular term. By way of example only, if Jermaine Jackson, Jr. had enrolled and attended classes at any college for the fall term, he would not have been deemed a drop-out under NCAA APR rules and we would have kept 1 more point. That single point was worth over 40 APR points. Those added points divided by 4 would have given us a four-year average APR slightly over 930. The same thing applies to Ballantyne. The reason that I do not cite Tariiq Jones is that he was likely not in good academic standing and had already spent 2 years at two or more junior colleges. Remember, too, that he had signed an NLI at another D-1 school and then obtained a release before showing up at UD. It is also possible that Jones was not receiving full athletic aid because his stepfather was a UD employee. (just speculation here).
|
|
|
Post by Commissioner on May 10, 2019 5:48:30 GMT -5
That's all fine but doesn't answer my question. An 826 score has to be based on getting 38 of a possible 46 points. I can't arrive at either number. We should have 26 possible points in fall 2017 (13 scholarship athletes). To add just 20 in the spring means 3 scholarships gone. I'm not getting there.
Or if by chance Tariq wasn't on scholarship, then you'd have 24 possible points in the fall. But I'm still ending up with 48 possible points after spring.
Nor can I figure out where we lost 8 points. Presumably 2 for Tariq in the fall, and 1 for Hogan. Where did we lose the other five? I get there only if we lost another point for hogan in spring (graduated, but still not meeting NCAA academic standards) and 2 each on Ballantine and jjj--meaning they flunked out and couldn't have transferred. Or does Tariq count as 2 more lost points in the spring, even though he dropped out after fall and therefore wasn't receiving aid? But if the latter is the case, it's harder still to get our possible points down to 46.
So I'm still puzzled how we got to an 826 apr, or 38 of 46 points. Are you saying the seniors are only worth 1 possible point in the spring? That would get me to 46 possible points--26 for fall, plus 20 for spring (a total of 4 for the seniors, plus 16 for the 8 remaining underclassmen). But I think seniors still count as 2 possible points--one for being in good standing, one for graduating/staying in school. If the seniors are only 1 possible point in the spring, we can get the denominator to 46, but how does the numerator fall to 38, unless JB and JJJ were not in good standing--in which case, they couldn't enroll elsewhere in 2018-19.
|
|
|
Post by ptctitan on May 10, 2019 7:16:06 GMT -5
Ballantyne and Jackson were in good standing at the end of the 2nd semester. Tariiq Jones was in school but ineligible in the 2nd semester. At least, he was on the bench along with Hogan during the second half of the season after they both had been ruled ineligible.
|
|
|
Post by Commissioner on May 10, 2019 8:55:24 GMT -5
I'm thinking now that perhaps we had 43 points out of a possible 52, which would be an 827 score with rounding, but 826 if you didn't round properly. That would give us 13 scholarship athletes, with 2 possible points per semester, for 2 semesters, for 52 possible points. That assumes Jones stayed in school for spring term, though academically ineligible to compete.
But then where were 9 points lost? Figure 1 each for Tariq and Hogan for not maintaining good standing in the fall, and two more points for not maintaining good standing in the spring. Then Tariq did, I think, not continue in school, so another point is lost. That's 5 down. It might be 6 if Hogan didn't graduate and didn't stay in school. Then where would the other 3 come from? Two from JB and JJJ for dropping out. That leaves one lost point unaccounted. If anyone else was ineligible after spring that might do it--including someone who took summer classes to be eligible in the fall, so we might not have known about it.
Anyway, however the NCAA calculated this, I think it's definite that we would have retained our eligibility if JB and JJJ had enrolled someplace (assuming they were, in fact, in good standing)--albeit just barely. That's a pretty strong case for a waiver from penalties, I agree.
But I also do think we shouldn't whitewash the failure of the BA regime to keep Hogan, Grant, and Aaron Foster-Smith eligible (all McCallum recruits who were in good standing when McCallum left), and Tariq Jones, who certainly had ability but didn't seem able to cut it.
|
|
|
Post by Commissioner on May 10, 2019 9:03:57 GMT -5
What was our 2018-19 score? I think we had a perfect 1000 this year, did we not? I assume TreQuan was in good standing when he left? I ask because we will need it--even if the NCAA gives us back 2 points for JJJ and Ballantyne, we need, by my calculations, a 995 score for 2018-19 to stay in compliance. That's because we have two low scores -- Ray's last year (Jalen Gibson, Paris Bass) and Bacari's last year--that will figure into the 4 year average.
|
|
|
Post by JDetroitTitan on May 10, 2019 12:09:29 GMT -5
If a player leaves your program and is academically eligible you only get 1 point out of 2 and if not academically eligible you get 0 out of 2 points. This is the reason why the scores are so low when Ray left and BA left. You had more players leave the University after their coach left. We only had 4 returning players onto this roster from last year Long, Blackshear, Josh & Musial everyone else unless they graduated (I would think you get 2 points for) we could only get 1 point for. I keep trying to figure out how we got an 826 for 2018. Each player on scholarship has a potential 2 points each semester--one for staying eligible, one for staying in school. An 826 score requires 38 of 46 possible points. I can figure out any other combo that does it. In 2018, we had 13 scholarship players, meaning 26 points for fall semester. McFolley - 2 of 2 Blackshear - 2 of 2 Black - 2/2 Allen - 2/2 I. Jones - 2/2 Prince - 2/2 Chatman - 2/2 T. Jones - 0/2 Hogan - 0/2 JJJ - 2/2 Ballantyne - 2/2 Eichler - 2/2 Long - 2/2 that's 22 out of 26. In the spring, If Jones and Hogan were gone, we'd have 11 players for 22 possible points. Somehow we have to lose 2 more points to get to 46 possible. I wonder if Spring: McFolley - 2 of 2 Blackshear - 2 of 2 Black - 2/2 Allen - 2/2 I. Jones - 2/2 Prince - 2/2 Chatman - 1/2 JJJ - 1/2 Ballantyne - 1/2 Eichler - 2/2 Long - 2/2 That would give us 19 of 22, for a total of 41 out of 48. That's too many possible points, and too high a score. Was anyone else ineligible after spring? Maybe grad transfers only count as 1 point for staying in school? That would drop us to a possible 46 points, but we'd still need to lose three actual points. I'm also not sure if we lose a point for Chatman going pro. I can determine, as PTC already did, that we must have scored 38 of 46 possible points. I can't figure out either a) where we lose 2 possible points in addition to the 4 lost on Hogan and T Jones not being around in the spring, and b) where we lose 8 points total--I've got us losing 4 for Tariq and Hogan in the fall, and then potentially 1 each for Chatman, Jackson, and Ballantyne not returning to school, for a total of 7. Maybe Chatman was ineligible when he entered the nba draft.
|
|
|
Post by ptctitan on May 10, 2019 15:26:59 GMT -5
I would add here that as a matter of practice, the NCAA will restore your lost retention point for a transfer if that player enrolls in another school in the following semester. This is one of the reasons why the APR scores are released about one-year after the end of the prior school years of most NCAA schools.
But if a transfer does not enroll in a new school, you cannot recover the lost retention point for a transfer out.
The impact of transfers upon a small roster like basketball can be disproportionate to the actual academic progress being made by those players who remain at the university and who are on athletic financial aid.
For example, Youngstown State's APR for 2017-18 was 894 due to its large roster turnover after it hired a new coach.
|
|
|
Post by ptctitan on May 11, 2019 7:03:58 GMT -5
What was our 2018-19 score? I think we had a perfect 1000 this year, did we not? I assume TreQuan was in good standing when he left? I ask because we will need it--even if the NCAA gives us back 2 points for JJJ and Ballantyne, we need, by my calculations, a 995 score for 2018-19 to stay in compliance. That's because we have two low scores -- Ray's last year (Jalen Gibson, Paris Bass) and Bacari's last year--that will figure into the 4 year average. I don't know if you can yet assume 1000 for this year. Conservatively, I'd think it's at least 950. We don't know what effect Rosser had on the APR. He appeared to have been enrolled. If the NCAA would restore the 2 retention points for JJJ and JB, then we would need 947 this year to keep 930.
|
|
|
Post by ptctitan on May 11, 2019 11:14:32 GMT -5
I am not certain about all of the puts and takes that comprised the exact numbers and how we got to those numbers.
I am 100% certain that the failure of JJJ and JB to enroll at a new school for the 2018-19 school year was the factor that moved us to 920 on the 4-year average. That was the tipping point. Until that happened, we were OK. Not great, but OK.
I am also 100% certain that this unusual event together with the fact that they have indicated their intent to enroll at LIU will be a very important argument made by us when we request a waiver for "extenuating and mitigating circumstances."
I expect that we will receive the waiver because the major hits to our 2017-18 and our 2015-15 APR's came from the loss of retention points due to the two coaching changes. We have a normal academic eligibility profile.
With the new transfer portal and transfer rules, maybe this will prompt a change in how the APR is calculated especially in how transfers out impact the score. Given that there was an increase this year in the number of Power 6 conference schools poaching grad transfers and regular transfers from mid-majors, it is clear that the NCAA needs to revisit the impact of transfers out on the APR's of all colleges.
|
|
|
Post by motorcitysam on May 11, 2019 16:57:56 GMT -5
The question I have is if the players who flunked out and/or became ineligible had remained in good academic standing, would it have mattered that JB and JJJ didn't enroll elsewhere?
I guess in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter which was the deciding factor, outside of how it might look to the people how are considering our appeal. The main thing is we're facing an issue that negatively impacts the program and may be impacting recruiting. (I could certainly see opposing coaches say, "Don't go to Mercy. They are being banned from postseason and it could be for more than one year.") Hopefully the appeal is successful. Even if we aren't a post season quality team next season, I hate having that ban hanging over our heads.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in on this topic with information and informed speculation and opinions. I have learned a lot reading this thread. Thanks for PTCT for breaking the news and adding some important context.
Regardless of the outcome of the appeal, I think most of us will continue to support the program as actively as we currently do, if not more. That what makes us fans. I'm looking forward to next season because a change in my work schedule will allow me to attend more games. The program needs our support, in attendance and in other ways. Go Titans.
|
|
|
Post by Commissioner on May 11, 2019 18:04:56 GMT -5
The question I have is if the players who flunked out and/or became ineligible had remained in good academic standing, would it have mattered that JB and JJJ didn't enroll elsewhere? No. But players in good standing just deciding to sit out a year is not a normal development. BA's performance wasn't great, but it shouldn't have gotten us suspended from postseason play. What's irritating is that the NCAA will probably take months to decide this. You would think they could do so by the middle of next week. The facts are simple, and they either agree that this is not what APR was designed for, or they don't. It's absurd the time they will take.
|
|
|
Post by ptctitan on May 11, 2019 18:53:24 GMT -5
The NCAA may not take as long as Commissioner fears. In late April, Jermaine Jackson, Jr signed a letter of intent to play at LIU during the 2019-20 school year. His point alone would get us back over 930. Basically, JJJ and JB took gap years in 2018-19. Studies show that more students who took gap years actually do better in class than most students who didn't. A non-athlete would not be penalized for taking a gap year. Nor would a university be penalized if a student receiving federal aid took a gap year and then returned to pursue a degree at a different college. Why should our APR and our eligibility for postseason play be penalized because a former player, son of a former assistant coach, transferred out but decided to take a gap year before going back to school?
|
|
|
Post by motorcitysam on May 16, 2019 14:36:28 GMT -5
Seeing some comments on social media that UCLA could be facing a postseason ban for APR issues.
|
|