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Post by Commissioner on Jul 13, 2020 20:50:54 GMT -5
#84. Kameron Chatman, 6-7 F, 2018
Detroit was so dismal in the 2018 season, and there were so many off the court distractions, that it’s easy to forget how good Kam Chatman was. Of course, he didn’t help his rep with Titan faithful by immediately declaring for the draft after the season and, though not expected by most experts to be drafted, staying in the draft and forfeiting his final year of elibility when Bacari Alexander was terminated as Coach. And in fact, he was not drafted, but has played in Turkey, Belgium, and the G League since leaving UD.
In his single season with Detroit, Chatman led the team in scoring (17.8 ppg) and rebounding (8.3 rpg), both good for 4th best in the conference; he was also second in the conference in free throw percentage and 6th in shooting percentage. He was a second team All-Conference selection, and probably would have been first team had he played on a better team. For a positive memory, Titan fans will recall his game winning jumper with two seconds left at St. Louis in November, 2017, one of the few significant Titan non-conference wins in recent years.
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Post by larrytitan on Jul 13, 2020 21:42:40 GMT -5
#84 ...Chatman
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Post by motorcitysam on Jul 14, 2020 5:26:59 GMT -5
#84. Kameron Chatman, 6-7 F, 2018
Detroit was so dismal in the 2018 season, and there were so many off the court distractions, that it’s easy to forget how good Kam Chatman was. Of course, he didn’t help his rep with Titan faithful by immediately declaring for the draft after the season and, though not expected by most experts to be drafted, staying in the draft and forfeiting his final year of elibility when Bacari Alexander was terminated as Coach. And in fact, he was not drafted, but has played in Turkey, Belgium, and the G League since leaving UD. In his single season with Detroit, Chatman led the team in scoring (17.8 ppg) and rebounding (8.3 rpg), both good for 4th best in the conference; he was also second in the conference in free throw percentage and 6th in shooting percentage. He was a second team All-Conference selection, and probably would have been first team had he played on a better team. For a positive memory, Titan fans will recall his game winning jumper with two seconds left at St. Louis in November, 2017, one of the few significant Titan non-conference wins in recent years. Really would have been nice to see what Kam would have done as a senior under a different coach and system. However, I always had the feeling that he was just passing through and would be leaving as soon as he got the chance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 7:57:26 GMT -5
#84. Kameron Chatman, 6-7 F, 2018
Detroit was so dismal in the 2018 season, and there were so many off the court distractions, that it’s easy to forget how good Kam Chatman was. Of course, he didn’t help his rep with Titan faithful by immediately declaring for the draft after the season and, though not expected by most experts to be drafted, staying in the draft and forfeiting his final year of elibility when Bacari Alexander was terminated as Coach. And in fact, he was not drafted, but has played in Turkey, Belgium, and the G League since leaving UD. In his single season with Detroit, Chatman led the team in scoring (17.8 ppg) and rebounding (8.3 rpg), both good for 4th best in the conference; he was also second in the conference in free throw percentage and 6th in shooting percentage. He was a second team All-Conference selection, and probably would have been first team had he played on a better team. For a positive memory, Titan fans will recall his game winning jumper with two seconds left at St. Louis in November, 2017, one of the few significant Titan non-conference wins in recent years. Not that I doubted you, but I actually looked up Chatmon's stats - the 17.8 ppg seemed unbelievable. My memory must be shot, because it was correct, and his other numbers like rebounds and shooting %'s were good too (so the scoring wasn't just a result of taking a crazy amount of shots). I guess, somehow, I just always thought negatively about Chatmon. Maybe it was the 8-24 record and the whole BA era mess; maybe it was his dad on the coaching staff; maybe it was how he left after one year (& the promise of his younger brother coming to U of D not happening). So maybe Chatmon was a better player than I remember, but I still don't know about #84 on the list...
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Post by Commissioner on Jul 14, 2020 8:21:50 GMT -5
#84. Kameron Chatman, 6-7 F, 2018
Detroit was so dismal in the 2018 season, and there were so many off the court distractions, that it’s easy to forget how good Kam Chatman was. Of course, he didn’t help his rep with Titan faithful by immediately declaring for the draft after the season and, though not expected by most experts to be drafted, staying in the draft and forfeiting his final year of elibility when Bacari Alexander was terminated as Coach. And in fact, he was not drafted, but has played in Turkey, Belgium, and the G League since leaving UD. In his single season with Detroit, Chatman led the team in scoring (17.8 ppg) and rebounding (8.3 rpg), both good for 4th best in the conference; he was also second in the conference in free throw percentage and 6th in shooting percentage. He was a second team All-Conference selection, and probably would have been first team had he played on a better team. For a positive memory, Titan fans will recall his game winning jumper with two seconds left at St. Louis in November, 2017, one of the few significant Titan non-conference wins in recent years. Not that I doubted you, but I actually looked up Chatmon's stats - the 17.8 ppg seemed unbelievable. My memory must be shot, because it was correct, and his other numbers like rebounds and shooting %'s were good too (so the scoring wasn't just a result of taking a crazy amount of shots). I guess, somehow, I just always thought negatively about Chatmon. Maybe it was the 8-24 record and the whole BA era mess; maybe it was his dad on the coaching staff; maybe it was how he left after one year (& the promise of his younger brother coming to U of D not happening). So maybe Chatmon was a better player than I remember, but I still don't know about #84 on the list... Actually, Scout, you pretty much sum up my feeling. It's surprising how good Chatman's numbers were, though. He even hit 41% of this threes, something I didn't mention in the capsule. The one-year guys generally were tough to rank. There are 5 of them on this list: Haywood, Pleas, Fortino, Chatman, and one to come. I kind of tried to look at them each as "were they in a qualitatively superior class of players to the guys behind them? But even that is pretty tough. I could have dropped him a couple more spots, but in the end I think he belongs in the Top 100. His numbers are just really good. As it is, he's the lowest rated of any player to be an all-conference selection. He bounced around a lot as I was drawing up rankings, from as high as about 70 down to about 100. Bacari had talent on his teams. I'm not big, as I've noted, on "chemistry," but the 2017 and 2018 Titans sure didn't have it. I tend to think that what some call "chemistry" is often more about coaching--a coach who knows how to configure his talent, get his players to buy into their roles, gets the most out of players in their roles, and manages that talent on the court. Bacari really failed all four. Bacari wouldn't contest that Triple J and Chatman both had to be stars. Perhaps the best player, Allen, got shunted aside. Because Triple J had to get his 30+ minutes per game, the Titans too often had a super small lineup with Allen essentially as a small forward. Bacari had a rep as a motivator, but repeatedly the team came out flat at the opening tip. Bacari couldn't get Hogan to stay eligible and in shape--something Ray had been able to do. And of course, there was whole Tariq Jones thing. (Aaron Foster-Smith was another solid player that Bacari couldn't keep eligible; these are not all Bacari's fault, to be sure, yet still, it's part of the job). Meanwhile, on the court, it was pick-up ball. One of the saddest chapters in Titan history, because Bacari understood what Titan fans wanted, he had the vision for the program. He just wasn't able to implement it. Think about that 2018 line up: G- McFolley G- Allen F- Chatman F- Hogan F- Prince Bench: JJJ, Dre Black, Blackshear Deep Bench: Ballantyne, Tariq Jones, Cole Long How does that team win just 8 games? I think with Ray or Mike Davis that team likely wins 17 to 22 games. But, I'm taking my own thread off course, away from the players to one particular team and coach. I won't argue if you think Chatman is too high, because a part of me does, too, but I also think the numbers are pretty powerful, and I don't think Chatman was the reason for the 8 wins.
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Post by Commissioner on Jul 14, 2020 8:33:55 GMT -5
#85. Marvin Owens, 6-4 G, 1987-1988
After leading Oklahoma City in scoring and assists in the 1986 season, Marv Owens transferred to MCC rival Detroit when the Chiefs dropped out of D1. At Detroit, Owens averaged 11.4 and 14.4 points in his two seasons, and was among the league leaders in steals both seasons. Owens had a quick first step that made him very effective at driving to the hoop. His game was hurt because he couldn't knock down the three with consistency. But he could handle the ball and rebound a bit. If you remember Owens, he really had Ray McCallum's skill set, just at a lower level.
Owens closed his Titan career with a bang, scoring 43 points in the 1988 regular season finale against Loyola. He then scored 26 to lead the Titans, 5-22 in the regular season, to a stunning first round upset of Anthony Bonner-led St. Louis in the MCC tournament. His Loyola outburst is still the 6th highest single-game total for a Titan.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Jul 14, 2020 9:31:12 GMT -5
#84. Kameron Chatman, 6-7 F, 2018
Detroit was so dismal in the 2018 season, and there were so many off the court distractions, that it’s easy to forget how good Kam Chatman was. Of course, he didn’t help his rep with Titan faithful by immediately declaring for the draft after the season and, though not expected by most experts to be drafted, staying in the draft and forfeiting his final year of elibility when Bacari Alexander was terminated as Coach. And in fact, he was not drafted, but has played in Turkey, Belgium, and the G League since leaving UD. In his single season with Detroit, Chatman led the team in scoring (17.8 ppg) and rebounding (8.3 rpg), both good for 4th best in the conference; he was also second in the conference in free throw percentage and 6th in shooting percentage. He was a second team All-Conference selection, and probably would have been first team had he played on a better team. For a positive memory, Titan fans will recall his game winning jumper with two seconds left at St. Louis in November, 2017, one of the few significant Titan non-conference wins in recent years. This is the first of your selections off of the candy shelf that I totally disagree with. I am not sure Coach K. could survive the 1-2 knockout punch of JJ and the Chatmans. ( Kind of has the sound of a band on tour.) Although Chatman did hit the game winner at ST. Louis I felt the team played better without him. When BA was suspended it was the only time this team had only one guy trying to drive the team bus. Your post reads the top 100 Titans post WW11. I feel the Chatmans never bought into being Titans and if Cam is truly the 84th best TITAN to pass thru the Hallowed Doors of Liv. and 6, in the last 50+ years, then we are not the storied program we think we are. I felt that Bielien probably sent BA a Christmas card with a couple of grand in it for taking the Chatmans off of his hands. I felt sorry for the guys on this team who were trying to be a team and will always wonder how much better McFolley and Allen would have been if they were not subjected to this fiasco.
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Post by Commissioner on Jul 14, 2020 10:02:23 GMT -5
#84. Kameron Chatman, 6-7 F, 2018
Detroit was so dismal in the 2018 season, and there were so many off the court distractions, that it’s easy to forget how good Kam Chatman was. Of course, he didn’t help his rep with Titan faithful by immediately declaring for the draft after the season and, though not expected by most experts to be drafted, staying in the draft and forfeiting his final year of elibility when Bacari Alexander was terminated as Coach. And in fact, he was not drafted, but has played in Turkey, Belgium, and the G League since leaving UD. In his single season with Detroit, Chatman led the team in scoring (17.8 ppg) and rebounding (8.3 rpg), both good for 4th best in the conference; he was also second in the conference in free throw percentage and 6th in shooting percentage. He was a second team All-Conference selection, and probably would have been first team had he played on a better team. For a positive memory, Titan fans will recall his game winning jumper with two seconds left at St. Louis in November, 2017, one of the few significant Titan non-conference wins in recent years. This is the first of your selections off of the candy shelf that I totally disagree with. I am not sure Coach K. could survive the 1-2 knockout punch of JJ and the Chatmans. ( Kind of has the sound of a band on tour.) Although Chatman did hit the game winner at ST. Louis I felt the team played better without him. When BA was suspended it was the only time this team had only one guy trying to drive the team bus. Your post reads the top 100 Titans post WW11. I feel the Chatmans never bought into being Titans and if Cam is truly the 84th best TITAN to pass thru the Hallowed Doors of Liv. and 6, in the last 50+ years, then we are not the storied program we think we are. I felt that Bielien probably sent BA a Christmas card with a couple of grand in it for taking the Chatmans off of his hands. I felt sorry for the guys on this team who were trying to be a team and will always wonder how much better McFolley and Allen would have been if they were not subjected to this fiasco. We're talking Chatman the player, not how he was coached, what his dad did, whether he ever intended to stay for more than a year. It's not just traditional stats that are really powerful. Chatman also had good numbers in the various "advanced" stats that seek to account for team, tempo, etc. His Win Share total for his season in Detroit is good; his +/- Box number is good (i.e. how the team did with him on the court). These numbers account for Chatman's poor defense, and he still comes out looking pretty good. His offensive rating (Ken Pom) is good--up in Willie Green territory. His True Shooting Percentage is good. With all the shenanigans on the 2008 team, you never heard about Chatman causing problems. I don't know if he was the greatest team player in the world, but he didn't complain, he didn't mope on the bench, there are no reports of him causing trouble in the locker room, he stayed eligible. As I noted responding to Scout, I have my doubts about Chatman, too, and ranking him this high. But to convince me that this is really wrong, you're going to have to do better than complain about his dad, the coaching, and your subjective belief--not born out in the numbers--that the team played better without him.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Jul 14, 2020 10:54:00 GMT -5
This is the first of your selections off of the candy shelf that I totally disagree with. I am not sure Coach K. could survive the 1-2 knockout punch of JJ and the Chatmans. ( Kind of has the sound of a band on tour.) Although Chatman did hit the game winner at ST. Louis I felt the team played better without him. When BA was suspended it was the only time this team had only one guy trying to drive the team bus. Your post reads the top 100 Titans post WW11. I feel the Chatmans never bought into being Titans and if Cam is truly the 84th best TITAN to pass thru the Hallowed Doors of Liv. and 6, in the last 50+ years, then we are not the storied program we think we are. I felt that Bielien probably sent BA a Christmas card with a couple of grand in it for taking the Chatmans off of his hands. I felt sorry for the guys on this team who were trying to be a team and will always wonder how much better McFolley and Allen would have been if they were not subjected to this fiasco. We're talking Chatman the player, not how he was coached, what his dad did, whether he ever intended to stay for more than a year. It's not just traditional stats that are really powerful. Chatman also had good numbers in the various "advanced" stats that seek to account for team, tempo, etc. His Win Share total for his season in Detroit is good; his +/- Box number is good (i.e. how the team did with him on the court). These numbers account for Chatman's poor defense, and he still comes out looking pretty good. His offensive rating (Ken Pom) is good--up in Willie Green territory. His True Shooting Percentage is good. With all the shenanigans on the 2008 team, you never heard about Chatman causing problems. I don't know if he was the greatest team player in the world, but he didn't complain, he didn't mope on the bench, there are no reports of him causing trouble in the locker room, he stayed eligible. As I noted responding to Scout, I have my doubts about Chatman, too, and ranking him this high. But to convince me that this is really wrong, you're going to have to do better than complain about his dad, the coaching, and your subjective belief--not born out in the numbers--that the team played better without him. We did win 2 out of 3 when he was injured and the game we lost to Northern Kentucky was by 2 points. At the time they were 4-0 and we were 0-4 in conference. We came within a bounce of being 3-0 without him. Seeing as the #'s are weighing in so much, in conference we were .667 without him and .154 with him.
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Post by larrytitan on Jul 14, 2020 11:11:48 GMT -5
The remaining one year player on Top 100 will be selected from a list to include: Kevin Smith John McIntyre
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Post by larrytitan on Jul 14, 2020 11:13:27 GMT -5
The remaining one year player on Top 100 will be selected from a list to include: Kevin Smith John McIntyre Calvin Winfield
I choose Winfield
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Post by Commissioner on Jul 14, 2020 11:15:50 GMT -5
We're talking Chatman the player, not how he was coached, what his dad did, whether he ever intended to stay for more than a year. It's not just traditional stats that are really powerful. Chatman also had good numbers in the various "advanced" stats that seek to account for team, tempo, etc. His Win Share total for his season in Detroit is good; his +/- Box number is good (i.e. how the team did with him on the court). These numbers account for Chatman's poor defense, and he still comes out looking pretty good. His offensive rating (Ken Pom) is good--up in Willie Green territory. His True Shooting Percentage is good. With all the shenanigans on the 2008 team, you never heard about Chatman causing problems. I don't know if he was the greatest team player in the world, but he didn't complain, he didn't mope on the bench, there are no reports of him causing trouble in the locker room, he stayed eligible. As I noted responding to Scout, I have my doubts about Chatman, too, and ranking him this high. But to convince me that this is really wrong, you're going to have to do better than complain about his dad, the coaching, and your subjective belief--not born out in the numbers--that the team played better without him. We did win 2 out of 3 when he was injured and the game we lost to Northern Kentucky was by 2 points. At the time they were 4-0 and we were 0-4 in conference. We came within a bounce of being 3-0 without him. True, but all three games were at home, and the wins were by 1 over Cleveland State and 2 over YSU, the worst teams in the league next to us. With Chatman playing, we lost to CSU by 3 on the road, and beat YSU by 10 on the road, and lost badly to NKU on the road. And using that kind of logic, we lost to IUPUI by 15 when Corey Allen played, but beat the Jags by 14 when Allen was injured. I think that's a pretty thin reed to hang on.
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Post by motorcitysam on Jul 14, 2020 11:33:15 GMT -5
#85. Marvin Owens, 6-4 G, 1987-1988
After leading Oklahoma City in scoring and assists in the 1986 season, Marv Owens transferred to MCC rival Detroit when the Chiefs dropped out of D1. At Detroit, Owens averaged 11.4 and 14.4 points in his two seasons, and was among the league leaders in steals both seasons. Owens had a quick first step that made him very effective at driving to the hoop. His game was hurt because he couldn't knock down the three with consistency. But he could handle the ball and rebound a bit. If you remember Owens, he really had Ray McCallum's skill set, just at a lower level. Owens closed his Titan career with a bang, scoring 43 points in the 1988 regular season finale against Loyola. He then scored 26 to lead the Titans, 5-22 in the regular season, to a stunning first round upset of Anthony Bonner-led St. Louis in the MCC tournament. His Loyola outburst is still the 6th highest single-game total for a Titan. Marv was also good at drawing fouls using the "flop" technique. Friendly, personable guy off the court. Another player who dated a VERY hot woman.
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Post by Commissioner on Jul 14, 2020 11:56:17 GMT -5
#85. Marvin Owens, 6-4 G, 1987-1988
After leading Oklahoma City in scoring and assists in the 1986 season, Marv Owens transferred to MCC rival Detroit when the Chiefs dropped out of D1. At Detroit, Owens averaged 11.4 and 14.4 points in his two seasons, and was among the league leaders in steals both seasons. Owens had a quick first step that made him very effective at driving to the hoop. His game was hurt because he couldn't knock down the three with consistency. But he could handle the ball and rebound a bit. If you remember Owens, he really had Ray McCallum's skill set, just at a lower level. Owens closed his Titan career with a bang, scoring 43 points in the 1988 regular season finale against Loyola. He then scored 26 to lead the Titans, 5-22 in the regular season, to a stunning first round upset of Anthony Bonner-led St. Louis in the MCC tournament. His Loyola outburst is still the 6th highest single-game total for a Titan. Marv was also good at drawing fouls using the "flop" technique. Friendly, personable guy off the court. Another player who dated a VERY hot woman. The best athletes always get the women, right Sam?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 12:13:01 GMT -5
#85. Marvin Owens, 6-4 G, 1987-1988
After leading Oklahoma City in scoring and assists in the 1986 season, Marv Owens transferred to MCC rival Detroit when the Chiefs dropped out of D1. At Detroit, Owens averaged 11.4 and 14.4 points in his two seasons, and was among the league leaders in steals both seasons. Owens had a quick first step that made him very effective at driving to the hoop. His game was hurt because he couldn't knock down the three with consistency. But he could handle the ball and rebound a bit. If you remember Owens, he really had Ray McCallum's skill set, just at a lower level. Owens closed his Titan career with a bang, scoring 43 points in the 1988 regular season finale against Loyola. He then scored 26 to lead the Titans, 5-22 in the regular season, to a stunning first round upset of Anthony Bonner-led St. Louis in the MCC tournament. His Loyola outburst is still the 6th highest single-game total for a Titan. Marv was also good at drawing fouls using the "flop" technique. Friendly, personable guy off the court. Another player who dated a VERY hot woman. I'm waiting for Sam to release his top 100 based on his very unique judging criteria
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