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Post by Commissioner on Jun 25, 2020 13:20:15 GMT -5
#32. Brendan McNamara, 5-10 G, 1948-51.
I know very little about Brendan McNamara as a player, and never saw him play, but here’s what I know:
He played 4 years for the Titans, and played every game in that time, which presumably earned him his nickname, “Iron Man.” As a freshman in 1948, he led the Titans in scoring. As a junior, he started on the Titans’ first ever 20-win team. He was named team captain as a senior in 1951, and the team was referred to as “McNamara’s Band,” suggesting the extent to which he was recognized as the leader on a team that featured All-American Norm Swanson. That team finished a disappointing 15-14 overall, but it beat #1 ranked Bradley in January and #1 ranked Oklahoma State in March.
Also, before the 1951 season, the NCAA made assists an official statistic for the first time. They kept it just two seasons, then dropped it for 30 years. But they counted assists in 1951, Mac’s senior year, and McNamara finished 9th in the country in assists per game. McNamara was awarded the Titans’ Don Wattrick Efficiency Award that year, which was given out in those days to the “most efficient” player on the team. I’m not quite sure what the criteria was, but it seemed to be recognition of what today some people call the “glue guy,” the one who may not have the most spectacular stats but holds the team together, doing a bit of everything. Published comments from the time praise his defense, and refer to him as the team’s “spark plug.” After his playing days, McNamara was an assistant coach for Calihan and the Titans from the 1956 through the 1966 seasons, helping to coach Titan greats such as Bill Ebben, Dave DeBusschere, and Dorie Murrey (I’m not certain of this, but I believe Mac was the Titans’ first full-time assistant coach).
So what do I make from these little bits and pieces? Well, McNamara wasn’t a big scorer (his best single season average was 7.8 points), but within the context of his time, he could score and was an offensive threat; he was one of the nation’s best assist men; he was durable and dependable; he was a good defensive player; he was respected by his teammates, as illustrated by his selection as team captain; he was a smart player and respected by his coaches, as illustrated by his returning as Calihan's assistant; and he played on teams that won big, and that won big games. There’s nothing negative in his limited portfolio. If I knew more, he might go quite a bit higher, or possibly lower. But from what I know, he was clearly a very good player. I may be ranking him a bit high, and I suspect perhaps more likely a touch low. But on this limited record, he belongs somewhere about here.
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Post by motorcitysam on Jun 25, 2020 14:36:19 GMT -5
#31. Owen Wells, 6-7 F, 1972-74Freshmen weren’t eligible for varsity play when New England native Owen Wells arrived at UD, and Wells’ sophomore season was nothing special—4.4 points and 3.0 rebounds per game. But Wells’ junior season was very good, and his senior year was superb. Wells--who was nicknamed "Magic" years before anyone had heard of Ervin Johnson--made a huge impression on this teenager in the fall of 1973, when he led Dick Vitale’s first team out to a 11-1 start. That start included a thrashing of Michigan, and wins over Michigan State and Minnesota, the Gophers first non-conference home loss in over 3 years. So this is largely an eye-test ranking, or perhaps a little hero worship, and if you think I’ve overrated Wells, then don’t complain about my heavy use of stats in most of these evaluations. Of course, as usual, the stats are pretty darn good, too. Wells averaged 14.2 points and 9 rebounds as a junior, and 20.6 points and 8.8 rebounds—plus over 2 blocks per game—as a senior on the 1974 squad. To me, Wells really helped set the tone for the Vitale/Gaines era on December 8, 1973, when he hit 15 of 25 shots and 8 of 9 free throws for 38 points as the Titans blasted a Campy Russell-led Michigan squad, 70-59. The final score doesn’t do justice to the Titan performance, and Wells was pulled late with the game in hand, to a big hug from Vitale and a thunderous ovation from the Calihan crowd of 7485. Over that 11-1 start, Wells tended to be at his best when he faced the best. Besides outplaying Russell, he also outplayed Canisius’s Larry Fogle (the nation’s leading scorer, whom Wells outscored 36-30), and two-time Big 10 scoring champ Mike Robinson of Michigan State (Wells also hit the winning bucket with 10 seconds left in overtime in that one). Wells was good for 20 points in a win over Fairfield for the Motor City title, a game featured in Sports Illustrated, another 20 in the win over Minnesota, and a team-best 18 in a January win over Dayton (unranked at the time, but ranked both earlier and later in the season). Wells was a 5th round pick of the Houston Rockets in the 1974 draft, made the team, and played in 33 games during the 1974-75 season. He then played professionally in Holland, Italy, and Australia, where he was MVP of the Aussies' National Basketball League in 1983. Off the court, Wells defied the sterotypical athletic profile. He enjoyed playing chess, liked obscure, progressive jazz music, and majored in Ancient History and Classics. Sadly, Wells died young, passing away after a stroke in 1993, age 42. View AttachmentOwen Wells Nothing wrong with a little hero worship on a list like this.
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Post by nctitan on Jun 25, 2020 16:17:02 GMT -5
I watched Wells play for a couple of seasons. When a scrum of players would go for the rebound, Wells' arm would rise out of the crowd, grab the ball and pull it down. He was like a football wide receiver.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Jun 26, 2020 1:44:24 GMT -5
#31. Owen Wells, 6-7 F, 1972-74Freshmen weren’t eligible for varsity play when New England native Owen Wells arrived at UD, and Wells’ sophomore season was nothing special—4.4 points and 3.0 rebounds per game. But Wells’ junior season was very good, and his senior year was superb. Wells--who was nicknamed "Magic" years before anyone had heard of Ervin Johnson--made a huge impression on this teenager in the fall of 1973, when he led Dick Vitale’s first team out to a 11-1 start. That start included a thrashing of Michigan, and wins over Michigan State and Minnesota, the Gophers first non-conference home loss in over 3 years. So this is largely an eye-test ranking, or perhaps a little hero worship, and if you think I’ve overrated Wells, then don’t complain about my heavy use of stats in most of these evaluations. Of course, as usual, the stats are pretty darn good, too. Wells averaged 14.2 points and 9 rebounds as a junior, and 20.6 points and 8.8 rebounds—plus over 2 blocks per game—as a senior on the 1974 squad. To me, Wells really helped set the tone for the Vitale/Gaines era on December 8, 1973, when he hit 15 of 25 shots and 8 of 9 free throws for 38 points as the Titans blasted a Campy Russell-led Michigan squad, 70-59. The final score doesn’t do justice to the Titan performance, and Wells was pulled late with the game in hand, to a big hug from Vitale and a thunderous ovation from the Calihan crowd of 7485. Over that 11-1 start, Wells tended to be at his best when he faced the best. Besides outplaying Russell, he also outplayed Canisius’s Larry Fogle (the nation’s leading scorer, whom Wells outscored 36-30), and two-time Big 10 scoring champ Mike Robinson of Michigan State (Wells also hit the winning bucket with 10 seconds left in overtime in that one). Wells was good for 20 points in a win over Fairfield for the Motor City title, a game featured in Sports Illustrated, another 20 in the win over Minnesota, and a team-best 18 in a January win over Dayton (unranked at the time, but ranked both earlier and later in the season). Wells was a 5th round pick of the Houston Rockets in the 1974 draft, made the team, and played in 33 games during the 1974-75 season. He then played professionally in Holland, Italy, and Australia, where he was MVP of the Aussies' National Basketball League in 1983. Off the court, Wells defied the sterotypical athletic profile. He enjoyed playing chess, liked obscure, progressive jazz music, and majored in Ancient History and Classics. Sadly, Wells died young, passing away after a stroke in 1993, age 42. Owen Wells I forgot about Wells. I really enjoyed his play and I do not think you overrated Wells. I think you have underrated him. He probably should be up about 4-5 spots.
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Post by Commissioner on Jun 26, 2020 7:43:09 GMT -5
#33. Brandon Cotton, 6-0 G, 2005-07.
As I was creating this list, I kept bouncing Cotton up and down, from as low as the a ranking in the 50s, up into the lower 20s. A three-time Horizon League All-Conference player (2d team), there’s no doubt that Cotton was a really good player, and a first rank scoring threat. He was tremendous on the drive and had a sweet mid-range jumper that he could stretch out to the three point line well enough to hit 36% from deep in his Titan career. But Cotton never quite lived up to the hype he had in high school, where he was a McDonald’s All-American alongside LeBron James.
Cotton’s collegiate career was troubled from the start. Expected to be the Spartans starting point guard as a freshman, he was sidelined by a stress fracture in his foot, and didn’t get the playing time he expected in three games after he returned. Further, he was dealing with serious personal problems that included the murders of two family members. After transferring to UD to be closer to family, he averaged 18.1 points per game over the next three years, 8th best on the Titans’ career list. But there was always a sense of disappointment around Cotton, a feeling that he didn’t make his collegiate teams better, or perhaps, that he should have done more.
Cotton was Horizon League Newcomer of the Year in 2005, averaging 18.8 points per game, but he never improved on those numbers. He butted heads frequently with Coach Perry Watson. Finally, in November, 2007, Watson suspended Cotton, a redshirt senior, for the Titans’ two exhibition games. Cotton says he only learned about it through the media, and lost his remaining trust in Watson. In any case, he quit the team shortly before the first regular season game of the year. He had been a Horizon First Team All-Conference pick in the pre-season media poll. Had he played that final season, he likely would have become the third Titan, after John Long and Rashad Phillips, with 2000 career points.
Cotton played pro ball in Iceland (averaging over 30 points per game one season) and the Dominican Republic, and got some time in the NBA development league, but failed to make the big show. After his playing days he worked at Neighborhood United Maximum Effort Now, a youth basketball organization in Detroit.
The sense that Detroit should have been better with Cotton in the lineup, and the way he parted with the team, has left Cotton a controversial figure with the Titan faithful. And yet Cotton hits all the criteria for a high ranking on this list: The stats are good; he was recognized as an All-Conference player three years running; he definitely would pass an "eye test." You don’t get too many three-year all-conference players or 1500 point scorers, and you should be thankful when you do.
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Post by Commissioner on Jun 26, 2020 9:34:58 GMT -5
#34. John Kirwan, 6-3 F, 1948-51
As a sophomore, John Kirwan led the Titans in scoring at 9.3 points per game; his other three seasons he was second on the club in scoring. As a senior in 1951 he was team captain and a second team All-Missouri Valley selection after averaging 12.5 points per game. He hit the go ahead basket in the final minutes of the Titan upset of #1 ranked Bradley in January, and led the Titans with 17 points in an upset of #1/#2 (depending on the poll) Oklahoma State in early March. Kirwan graduated as the Titans’ all-time leading scorer with 965 career points.
So here’s some good trivia: On February 14, 1951, Kirwan set a Titan single game scoring record with 31 points against Houston. Whose record did he break? Turns out it was a 39 year-old record at the time, with the prior mark of 30 set by Leo Heaphy in 1912. Heaphy became a Vice President at National Bank of Detroit. Kirwan attended UD law and became a long-time judge in Wayne County. He died in 2017 at age 89.
There may be more complete records for the early years somewhere in Titan archives, but going back to 1926, these 8 Titans have ended their careers as the school's all-time leading scorer:
Eddie Harrigan '26 (I'm not 100% sure, but pretty certain that Harrigan graduated with the record--424 points) Bob Calihan '40 (761) John Kirwan '51 (965) Norm Swanson '53 (1494) Guy Sparrow '55 (1608) Dave DeBusschere '62 (1985) John Long '78 (2167) Rashad Phillips '01 (2319)
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Post by Commissioner on Jun 26, 2020 16:20:11 GMT -5
#35. Terrell Riggs, 6-7 PF, 2000-2003.
Those of you who are a bit on older (and most of us here are) and follow baseball will remember a long-time Dodger pitcher named Don Sutton. I don't know that there was ever a season when Don Sutton was considered one of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. He was just good, year after year. 20 seasons winning 10 or more games. Most fans didn't really consider him Hall of Fame material, but by the time he retired, there was simply no precedent for keeping a player with his career stats out of the Hall of Fame. Terrell Riggs was kind of the Titans' Don Sutton in the first few years of this century.
High school recruiting wasn’t the subject of such intense coverage and speculation 20 years ago as it is today, but I do recall that at least one national scouting service placed Riggs in its top 100 recruits. I think he was the only such player Perry Watson got directly out of high school.
Terrell was a factor from the get go, averaging 10.4 points and 6.8 rebounds as a freshman, while shooting 56.8% from the floor. Unfortunately, while he remained a quality starter for 4 seasons, he never much improved on that initial showing. Over the next three years, Riggs averaged between 10.1 and 13.0 points, and between 5.9 and 7.5 rebounds. He was always a good finisher in the post, but never equaled that 56.8% shooting. He made the league’s All Newcomer team as a freshman, and the All-Defensive team as a sophomore, but was never All-Conference nor even a repeater on the All-Defensive team. His best single game probably came early in the sophomore season, when he had 20 points and 19 rebounds in a win over Wyoming.
But he was a consistent player for 4 seasons. Riggs is tied with Rashad Phillips as the Titans’ all-time leader in games played, and he is 7th in career rebounds. He scored 1434 points, placing him 18th on the career register. Perhaps more impressively, Riggs gathered in more rebounds over the course of his UD Career than any other Titan to play in Calihan Hall since Terry Tyler over 40 years ago. That’s not a bad marker.
It’s not the worst thing for a coach to have a guy you just ink into the starting lineup every game for four years, knowing you’ll get quality defense, rebounds, and bit of scoring. That was Terrell Riggs.
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Post by rbj on Jun 26, 2020 19:21:30 GMT -5
#35. Terrell Riggs, 6-7 PF, 2000-2003.Those of you who are a bit on older (and most of us here are) and follow baseball will remember a long-time Dodger pitcher named Don Sutton. I don't know that there was ever a season when Don Sutton was considered one of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. He was just good, year after year. 20 seasons winning 10 or more games. Most fans didn't really consider him Hall of Fame material, but by the time he retired, there was simply no precedent for keeping a player with his career stats out of the Hall of Fame. Terrell Riggs was kind of the Titans' Don Sutton in the first few years of this century. High school recruiting wasn’t the subject of such intense coverage and speculation 20 years ago as it is today, but I do recall that at least one national scouting service placed Riggs in its top 100 recruits. I think he was the only such player Perry Watson got directly out of high school. Terrell was a factor from the get go, averaging 10.4 points and 6.8 rebounds as a freshman, while shooting 56.8% from the floor. Unfortunately, while he remained a quality starter for 4 seasons, he never much improved on that initial showing. Over the next three years, Riggs averaged between 10.1 and 13.0 points, and between 5.9 and 7.5 rebounds. He was always a good finisher in the post, but never equaled that 56.8% shooting. He made the league’s All Newcomer team as a freshman, and the All-Defensive team as a sophomore, but was never All-Conference nor even a repeater on the All-Defensive team. His best single game probably came early in the sophomore season, when he had 20 points and 19 rebounds in a win over Wyoming. But he was a consistent player for 4 seasons. Riggs is tied with Rashad Phillips as the Titans’ all-time leader in games played, and he is 7th in career rebounds. He scored 1434 points, placing him 18th on the career register. Perhaps more impressively, Riggs gathered in more rebounds over the course of his UD Career than any other Titan to play in Calihan Hall since Terry Tyler over 40 years ago. That’s not a bad marker. It’s not the worst thing for a coach to have a guy you just ink into the starting lineup every game for four years, knowing you’ll get quality defense, rebounds, and bit of scoring. That was Terrell Riggs. I was very happy when the titans signed T.Riggs, I believe the free press and the Detroit news both had him rated as the third best player in the class of 1998, behind Dane Fife and Antonio Gates.
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Post by Commissioner on Jun 27, 2020 8:51:32 GMT -5
#36. Kevin McAdoo, 6-0 G, 1983-1986
Kevin McAdoo is the Titans’ all-time leader in assists, and that oughta get you into the top 40 in this list, no? He averaged 3.3, 5.6, 5.4, and 7.4 assists over his 4 seasons, with the last three of those all among the 10 best in Titan history. By the barest fraction of a point, his career assist per game average is second to Wilbert McCormick—had he had one more total assist, he would displace McCormick. McAdoo was never a big offensive threat, peaking at 9.9 points per game as a senior in 1986, but he was a good percentage shooter from both the floor and the foul line (he’s 8th on the Titans’ all-time list for foul shooting percentage). More importantly, he had superb assist/turnover ratios, which is what you want in a point guard. McAdoo was a second team All-MCC selection in 1986.
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Post by Commissioner on Jun 27, 2020 9:00:24 GMT -5
#37. Eli Holman, 6-10 C, 2010-12
As I noted in the opening post on this thread, as you move further back into the dome portion of the bell curve, it gets harder and harder to assigned exact ranks. We hit that point several listings ago, and the difficulty is growing. Next come several forwards whom you could rank in almost any order (and you could add to the group Riggs and Kirwan, and even Jerry Davis and Owen Wells). But I've given it my best shot, which could change if I were to do this tomorrow or next week.
Eli Holman came to Detroit with a reputation. A top 100 recruit out of Richmond California, he was suspended for a year of high school ball after shoving a referee. He returned for the last half of his senior year and averaged 27 points, 12 rebounds, and an incredible 10 blocks per game. He signed with Indiana, where he was recruited by Assistant Coach Ray McCallum. In January of his senior year at Richmond Holman was shot while going to a party near his home. Holman played sparingly as an Indiana freshman, then injured his wrist in December and missing the rest of the season. In the spring Holman got into a shouting match with newly hired head coach Tom Crean in Crean’s office. Reportedly, Holman threw a potted plant, and police were eventually called.
So he had a not altogether great rep when he decided to transfer soon after the incident in Crean’s office. Although he had a number of offers near his home, including Cal and St. Mary’s, he followed McCallum to his new gig as head coach at UD. He sat out the 2008-09 season and began his Detroit career in the fall of ’09.
After 5 games in Detroit as a Titan, Holman was averaging 16.2 points, 11.2 rebounds, and 2.2 blocks, while shooting 60% from the floor. Unfortunately, Holman’s career was not to reach the heights those first few games suggested were possible. But it was a nice career nonetheless. Holman finished his first season in Detroit averaging 11.8 points, and Horizon League bests in rebounds (8.9 per game), shooting percentage (61.4%), and blocks (2.5 per game). He was named to the league’s All-Newcomer team, but wrongfully ignored in the All-Conference selections.
In 2011 Holman again led the Horizon in rebounds at 9.5 per game, and in field goal percentage at 60.7%. He was named to the Conference All-Defensive Team and to the Second Team All-Conference.
Meanwhile, McCallum had become something of a father figure to Holman, who, for the most part, learned to manage his temper. Holman became known as the player who, if he hosted a recruit on an official visit, got the commitment. But there was still was maturation to do, and Eli was suspended for the first 10 games of the 2012 season after punching a student at a fraternity party shortly before the season began. Without Holman, the Titans lurched to a 4-6 start, with two of the wins over non-D1 opponents. When Holman returned, he was used off the bench, and ended the year averaging 10.8 points and 7 rebounds, winning the Conference Sixth Man Award. The Titans were clicking by March—they closed out the season on a 14-2 run and won the Horizon League Tournament—but the slow, Holman-less start doomed the Titans to a #15 tournament seed, where Kansas proved too much, even as Eli turned in a double-double with 10 points and 11 rebounds.
After his Titan playing days, Eli got time in the NBA summer league each year from 2012 to 2014, but never got an NBA contract. Instead, he’s had a long and very successful overseas career, playing in Israel, Turkey, China, Lebanon, and Puerto Rico, putting up huge numbers in China, in particular. In 2015 he founded what is now called the Eli Holman Foundation, which supports youth and young adults through education, athletics, and civic engagement. He’s also been a generous benefactor of his alma mater.
Eli has been a stellar Titan success story, not only because of his success on the court, but because of his growth and maturation into a model citizen and community leader.
As far as his on-court performance, in addition to the Horizon League honors noted above, Eli ranks first on the all-time Titan list for career field goal percentage, and holds 3 of the top 6 individual season percentages. He also has more career and more single season blocked shots than any Titan except for Terry Tyler. His career rebound per game average is the highest of any Titan in the last 40 years, since Earl Cureton. Pretty good work.
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Post by Commissioner on Jun 27, 2020 9:11:54 GMT -5
#38. Brian Humes, 6-8 F, 1984-87
When I started, I didn’t expect to see Saginaw's Brian Humes this high, but he holds up pretty well on the stat sheet, and his playing 4 full seasons as a Titan lifts him past some two and three year players. After a typical “break-in” freshman year (5.9 ppg, 3.3 rpg), Humes averaged 13.4, 14.1, and 17.6 points over the next three seasons, with rebounding numbers of 4.5, 4.9, and 6.4 per game. Humes’ offense came from the low post, and his 53.6% career field goal percentage places him 8th on the Titans all-time list. Likewise, on defense he was a consistent presence in the paint, averaging more than a block per game over the course of his career, ranking 4th for total blocks on the Titan career lists. As a junior in 1986 he led the MCC in both field goal percentage and blocks, and as a senior was a second team All-conference selection.
There are a bunch of forwards I’ve ranked between #30 and #50 on this list. As noted, Hume ranks near the top in part because of his longevity. A good, solid player and 4-year Titan.
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Post by Commissioner on Jun 27, 2020 9:16:31 GMT -5
#39. Ryvon Covile, 6-9 C, 2003-2007
Covile is another guy I bounced around a lot as I was making this list. Covile never struck me as that great a player, but he ranks quite well in the modern statistical measures. Over the past 25 years, only Rashad Phillips, Ray McCallum, and Jermaine Jackson, Sr., have more Titan career win shares, and his true shooting percentage is a pretty awesome .592. After taking an injury redshirt year in 2006, Covile had a superb redshirt senior year in 2007, averaging 13.7 points and a league leading 10.6 rebounds, the latter number good for 7th best in the nation. Covile’s sophomore shooting percentage of .637 is the best in Titan history, and his career 57.3 is 4th on the all-time list.
But he real presence was on defense. He was a member of the Horizon All-Defensive team in each of his last three playing seasons, and ranks 6th all-time on the Titan list for blocked shots. Covile was a second team All-Conference selection in 2007. Hsd his other seasons matched his 2017 totals he'd be ranked much higher--as a single season, that was an exceptional year.
After his UD days, Covile got some time in the NBA summer league but never quite made the show. He played pro ball for several years in France, Japan, and Argentina, and did some AAU coaching back in Michigan.
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Post by nctitan on Jun 27, 2020 10:14:45 GMT -5
#37. Eli Holman, 6-10 C, 2010-12Eli has been a stellar Titan success story, not only because of his success on the court, but because of his growth and maturation into a model citizen and community leader. (Trimmed this description down to keep from elongating the post.) What I liked most about Eli was his joy for the game and his joy for life. His smile was bigger than he was, he was a happy guy, and he was always so friendly. There is something to be said about intensity for a ballplayer, but from the broader perspective an athlete should be overjoyed at getting to go to college and have a job playing a game. That was Eli. On top of that, his affection for the University and sharing his good fortune is admirable.
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Post by motorcitysam on Jun 27, 2020 10:55:06 GMT -5
#36. Kevin McAdoo, 6-0 G, 1983-1986Kevin McAdoo is the Titans’ all-time leader in assists, and that oughta get you into the top 40 in this list, no? He averaged 3.3, 5.6, 5.4, and 7.4 assists over his 4 seasons, with the last three of those all among the 10 best in Titan history. By the barest fraction of a point, his career assist per game average is second to Wilbert McCormick—had he had one more total assist, he would displace McCormick. McAdoo was never a big offensive threat, peaking at 9.9 points per game as a senior in 1986, but he was a good percentage shooter from both the floor and the foul line (he’s 8th on the Titans’ all-time list for foul shooting percentage). More importantly, he had superb assist/turnover ratios, which is what you want in a point guard. McAdoo was a second team All-MCC selection in 1986. Also dated the most beautiful girl on campus. Based on her beauty, I would have put him in the top 15 for that alone.
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Post by Commissioner on Jun 27, 2020 12:08:42 GMT -5
#36. Kevin McAdoo, 6-0 G, 1983-1986Kevin McAdoo is the Titans’ all-time leader in assists, and that oughta get you into the top 40 in this list, no? He averaged 3.3, 5.6, 5.4, and 7.4 assists over his 4 seasons, with the last three of those all among the 10 best in Titan history. By the barest fraction of a point, his career assist per game average is second to Wilbert McCormick—had he had one more total assist, he would displace McCormick. McAdoo was never a big offensive threat, peaking at 9.9 points per game as a senior in 1986, but he was a good percentage shooter from both the floor and the foul line (he’s 8th on the Titans’ all-time list for foul shooting percentage). More importantly, he had superb assist/turnover ratios, which is what you want in a point guard. McAdoo was a second team All-MCC selection in 1986. Also dated the most beautiful girl on campus. Based on her beauty, I would have put him in the top 15 for that alone. That's one criterion that hadn't occurred to me.
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