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Post by udmperry on Mar 8, 2023 10:58:00 GMT -5
Word! Plus one. What he said! Well put! Thx!
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Post by ptctitan on Mar 8, 2023 11:40:48 GMT -5
Terry Foster joins in.
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Post by Commissioner on Mar 8, 2023 13:38:47 GMT -5
The idea that it would be "buying the record" is just BullShit--probably the most Bullshitty argument made here. Teams play games according to the rules. If the CBI wants him to play, because it will help the CBI draw interest, that's up to them. It's then up to us to decide whether to play. Nobody is bribing the CBI, or paying off officials. I remember way back in 1969, the Titans started strong and were ranked #7 in the country at one point. But they succumbed to a tough schedule and finished just 16-10. There was considerable discussion of whether they would get an NIT bid, with the knowledge that that bid would largely hinge on whether or not the NIT wanted to Spencer Haywood, considered the most exciting player of the day (even over Maravich!). Indeed, the NIT long selected its field based in part on fan appeal. They wanted New York area teams to draw crowds, and they often seeded accordingly, too. Playing in the CBI is no more "buying a record" than playing in in-season invitationals, which allow you to schedule 31 instead of 29 games. It's no more buying a record than a big school paying guarantees for more home games.
As I've said before, EVERY record is determined in large part by time and place. If Babe Ruth played from 1894-1915 instead of 1914 to 1935, he never would have hit 500 home runs, let alone 714. If Henry Aaron were born 15 years earlier, he wouldn't have broken Ruth's record, because he would have been stuck in the Negro Leagues for another decade. And if we're giving AD an asterisk for year five, don't we need an asterisk for all the guys who set records in year 4, since Maravich, Alcindor, Elvin Hayes, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor etc. only got three years of eligibility? Do we retroactively take Tom Gola out of the record book as the all-time leader in rebounds, since, due to many changes in the game, rebounds are harder to come by now than they were when Gola played. Or do we list Bill Russell as number 1, even though under the theory that if he'd had 4 years of eligibility, he might have the record?
Some people had the three point line. Some played with a narrow "key." Some played when the game was super fast, some when it was much slower. (By the way, despite the shot clock, the game is much slower now than when Pistol Pete played). As Sam pointed out, some played when major conferences, notably the SEC, were all white. There have been different rules for shooting fouls, and different definitions of what constitutes various fouls. Some played when there was a jump ball after every basket. Records are cool, but holding the scoring record doesn't say you were the best--it just says you scored the most points.
But I'm far from my initial point. This "buying the record" argument is pure, 100% BS.
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Post by Commissioner on Mar 8, 2023 13:57:50 GMT -5
FAN, there is no doubt in my mind that the negative PR firestorm that is building will have an adverse impact on our school, one that we may never recover from. Prior to the CBI controversy, “the chase” had what I consider a small asterisk associated with it, pertaining to the 5th year and the game played differential. This was irrational and most people dismissed it. AD came just shy of the record which in a remarkable feet. With this CBI controversy, now the asterisk is becoming super sized. Just google “Antoine Davis” and read any new article from the past two days and you’ll see the negative PR on display. This giant asterisk in only going to continue to grow. We are missing the crassness of this situation. Again, I ask, Please, please tell us about this looming PR disaster. A "negative firestorm." I'm just dying to know how exactly you think this works, and what stories are going to be written. The whiners will whine, but really, you think this is a "negative firestorm?" It's pretty obvious just from what's been written in the last two weeks that the positive so far blows away the whiners and naysayers that it's not even a contest. From the February 29, 2024 edition of U.S. News Best Colleges: "However, we lowered the University of Detroit Mercy's ranking by 57 places to account for the school's cheap, underhanded ploy of accepting an invitation to the College Basketball Invitational in 2023. This set a new low in sportsmanship unequalled since the point shaving scandals of 1952, and we felt it must be accounted for. All things considered, we urge people not to attend this school."ESPN Sports Center, Jan 6, 2024, Brian Kenney on Top Plays of the Day: "And the best play of the day came from the University of Detroit Mercy's fantastic freshman Ryan Hurst, but we're not going to show it to you in honor of Pete Maravich. As most of you recall, last year the Titans refused to turn down an invitation to the College Basketball Invitational, where one of its students--he doesn't deserve mention by name--broke Pistol Pete's career scoring record. Pete, wherever you are, you're always the record holder in our book."Press Release, Gazelle Group, March 22, 2023: Milwaukee Wins 2023 in ForfeitThe College Basketball Invitational today crowned the Milwaukee Panthers winner of the 2023 CBI. The scheduled final, between Milwaukee and fellow Horizon League member Detroit, was cancelled. Rick Giles, President of the Gazelle Group, told reporters, "look, we never expected Detroit to have a chance at winning the tournament. We just invited them to sell some tickets to watch the Davis kid set the scoring record. In retrospect, we apologize for that decision, which never should have been made. We apologize for the hurt and anger we have caused, and promise to do better in the future. In the meantime, today the Gazelle Group pledges $50,000 to the Louisiana State University Basketball program."The terrible consequences of this decision could be felt forever!
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Post by fan on Mar 8, 2023 14:23:25 GMT -5
Commissioner; So well said, bottom line the game of basketball has changed and changed, the rules and the game is fluid not static, why should the records be static? Is the only way Maravich's record can be broken is to play the exact games, and the exact minutes, with the same exact number of shots, it's nonsense. The people objecting to this board really need to explain their agenda, it's not likely the record, game or money.
As somebody famous likes to say IT'S BASKETBALL MAN!
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Post by ptctitan on Mar 8, 2023 15:01:16 GMT -5
For every hyperion opinion posted here on this topic, there are 10 more similar opinions from self-proclaimed "experts", big schools, and some conferences pressuring these tournaments not to invite us because they don't want Antoine to hold the record and they don't want Antoine or our school to benefit from Antoine setting the record in the CBI. They would not care one iota if the CBI invited us if Antoine would not break Pistol Pete's record by playing. But these self-anointed "guardians" of college basketball don't want him to set the record in a tournament not owned by the NCAA. If that be the case, then deduct Maravich's points he earned in the 1970 NIT. In many respects, it is "Detroit Against Everybody" to get an invitation. So, we'll see what happens over the next 4 days.
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Post by calihanmole on Mar 8, 2023 15:06:21 GMT -5
Commissioner; So well said, bottom line the game of basketball has changed and changed, the rules and the game is fluid not static, why should the records be static? Is the only way Maravich's record can be broken is to play the exact games, and the exact minutes, with the same exact number of shots, it's nonsense. The people objecting to this board really need to explain their agenda, it's not likely the record, game or money. As somebody famous likes to say IT'S BASKETBALL MAN! Fan, the objectors and the haters won’t explain their agenda. Their own lives didn’t work out the way they had hoped, and so now they have nothing better to do than try to minimize or even prevent the accomplishments of a college student. It’s sad, I know. But don’t expect any well thought out reason or honesty with these people. Some people in this world just like to shoot down the people who do great things because they themselves don’t want to address their own failures. Let them talk themselves tired and just tune into FloHoops in a couple weeks and watch Antoine get his buckets.
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Post by fan on Mar 8, 2023 16:23:28 GMT -5
Mole, I guess your right, I've got to tell you I'm an old guy and a college basketball person. I was at and did see Maravich's last college game in the NIT at MSG again Marquette. It is a special event in my basketball memories, as will be AD's event. AD joins the special players who have passed through basketball since I have been following the game, the real shame is more people hadn't been at his games to see him.
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Post by motorcitysam on Mar 8, 2023 16:34:25 GMT -5
FAN, there is no doubt in my mind that the negative PR firestorm that is building will have an adverse impact on our school, one that we may never recover from. Prior to the CBI controversy, “the chase” had what I consider a small asterisk associated with it, pertaining to the 5th year and the game played differential. This was irrational and most people dismissed it. AD came just shy of the record which in a remarkable feet. With this CBI controversy, now the asterisk is becoming super sized. Just google “Antoine Davis” and read any new article from the past two days and you’ll see the negative PR on display. This giant asterisk in only going to continue to grow. We are missing the crassness of this situation. Again, I ask, Please, please tell us about this looming PR disaster. A "negative firestorm." I'm just dying to know how exactly you think this works, and what stories are going to be written. The whiners will whine, but really, you think this is a "negative firestorm?" It's pretty obvious just from what's been written in the last two weeks that the positive so far blows away the whiners and naysayers that it's not even a contest. From the February 29, 2024 edition of U.S. News Best Colleges: "However, we lowered the University of Detroit Mercy's ranking by 57 places to account for the school's cheap, underhanded ploy of accepting an invitation to the College Basketball Invitational in 2023. This set a new low in sportsmanship unequalled since the point shaving scandals of 1952, and we felt it must be accounted for. All things considered, we urge people not to attend this school."ESPN Sports Center, Jan 6, 2024, Brian Kenney on Top Plays of the Day: "And the best play of the day came from the University of Detroit Mercy's fantastic freshman Ryan Hurst, but we're not going to show it to you in honor of Pete Maravich. As most of you recall, last year the Titans refused to turn down an invitation to the College Basketball Invitational, where one of its students--he doesn't deserve mention by name--broke Pistol Pete's career scoring record. Pete, wherever you are, you're always the record holder in our book."Press Release, Gazelle Group, March 22, 2023: Milwaukee Wins 2023 in ForfeitThe College Basketball Invitational today crowned the Milwaukee Panthers winner of the 2023 CBI. The scheduled final, between Milwaukee and fellow Horizon League member Detroit, was cancelled. Rick Giles, President of the Gazelle Group, told reporters, "look, we never expected Detroit to have a chance at winning the tournament. We just invited them to sell some tickets to watch the Davis kid set the scoring record. In retrospect, we apologize for that decision, which never should have been made. We apologize for the hurt and anger we have caused, and promise to do better in the future. In the meantime, today the Gazelle Group pledges $50,000 to the Louisiana State University Basketball program."The terrible consequences of this decision could be felt forever! "All things considered, we urge people not to attend this school" cracked me up. Bravo. I am in agreement with you, particularly your thoughts on "buying a record" and "bad publicity". Seems silly to me to think that we shouldn't do something to benefit our program because outsiders with no real concern for us might have negative comments about it.
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Post by larrytitan on Mar 8, 2023 18:42:19 GMT -5
Fan,
I also was at the Marquette-LSU semifinal game at MSG in the 1970 NIT. The Dean Meminger led Warriors crushed LSU 101-79. Pete was totally frustrated by Marquette’s defense. Incidentally, Marquette won their first game of the NIT over UMASS with Julius Erving.
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Post by udballer on Mar 8, 2023 18:56:41 GMT -5
As someone who has gone on the record several times that if we are extended the offer... we should accept and play, I will say this. I dont consider this a defense of the haters, but you be the judge.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the CBI, the Super 8 (or whatever the new tourney is called), or really any tourney beyond the NCAA or NIT. I was not a fan of expanding March Madness to include play-in games. I am not a fan of the Alamo Rent-a-car Tortilla Bowls of the world in football.
While they exist, they normally carry standards for entry... even if the standards are low. Those standards are based on team results. I truly wish (even this year) that standards were established for these tournaments.
When the CBI was originally floated, my response was that I didn't care if we played one way or the other. I've since amended that to say that IF we are invited we should accept and play. Two conflicting thoughts are in my head...
1) I'd like to see AD get the record. Many of the "asterisk" arguments against him are silly to me and mean less than nothing. Plus, he's a great kid who obviously works hard at his game.
2) I do not believe, in any way, that the 2022-23 Titans deserve to see their failed season extended. Were there even low standards to meet, we would not have crossed that threshold. We could literally go 4-0 to win the CBI and still not end the season with a winning record. That's a poor season.
All that said, these tourneys dont need to follow my standards... so like I said, if we get an invite, accept and get the record.
I think many people on the national level probably think like me. They see that the ONLY reason we'd ever be invited is based on an individual player and not a team's performance, and it pisses them off.
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Post by udballer on Mar 8, 2023 19:00:46 GMT -5
Also... this in no way compares to Pistol Pete's team playing (and possibly paying) in the the NIT back in the day. That team was highly successful. As I see it, that is the main difference.
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Post by fan on Mar 8, 2023 19:46:43 GMT -5
Actually, LSU, never gained an NCAA bid, as Larry Titan may confirm AL McGuie the Marquette coach's defense that night intimidated Maravich so badly he scored only 20 points. Press Maravich mocked Marquette by saying something to the effect that watching Marquette play is like watching grass grow. Dean Meminger owned that night.
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Post by nctitan on Mar 8, 2023 20:11:53 GMT -5
FAN, there is no doubt in my mind that the negative PR firestorm that is building will have an adverse impact on our school, one that we may never recover from. Prior to the CBI controversy, “the chase” had what I consider a small asterisk associated with it, pertaining to the 5th year and the game played differential. This was irrational and most people dismissed it. AD came just shy of the record which in a remarkable feet. With this CBI controversy, now the asterisk is becoming super sized. Just google “Antoine Davis” and read any new article from the past two days and you’ll see the negative PR on display. This giant asterisk in only going to continue to grow. We are missing the crassness of this situation. Looks like according to the poll conducted on this site that almost 85% of our fans are in favor of playing in the CBI. That is a very strong percentage who would like to see the season continue a little longer. Who gives a damn if someone who is not a fan of UD does not want us to play. It really is none of their business and how someone from the SEC , who would like to keep the record, views this should have no influence on our decision. Our team would like to do this and a majority of our fans are in favor so let’s do it. I would think not playing in the CBI would have the greater adverse affect on our program. I am offended by LSU and the SEC actively lobbying to keep Antoine from overtaking Maravich for the scoring record. They're acting like bullies, saying the record should stay with a Power 5 conference and team and how could a lowly mid-major athlete even think of stealing the record. Last I looked, the record was for the NCAA DI basketball player with the most career points. When Davis adds four more, that's him. If anyone wants an asterisk, give Maravich one saying that he scored second most without the three-point line, without a freshman year, without defenders beating the crap out of him whenever he drove the lane, by shooting twice as many attempts as Davis, getting taken to the free throw line much more often under much more liberal rules. But the record is "most points scored in a career." Not most points in three years or most points only shooting two-point baskets or ....
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Post by nctitan on Mar 8, 2023 20:18:16 GMT -5
FAN, there is no doubt in my mind that the negative PR firestorm that is building will have an adverse impact on our school, one that we may never recover from. Prior to the CBI controversy, “the chase” had what I consider a small asterisk associated with it, pertaining to the 5th year and the game played differential. This was irrational and most people dismissed it. AD came just shy of the record which in a remarkable feet. With this CBI controversy, now the asterisk is becoming super sized. Just google “Antoine Davis” and read any new article from the past two days and you’ll see the negative PR on display. This giant asterisk in only going to continue to grow. We are missing the crassness of this situation. Again, I ask, Please, please tell us about this looming PR disaster. A "negative firestorm." I'm just dying to know how exactly you think this works, and what stories are going to be written. The whiners will whine, but really, you think this is a "negative firestorm?" It's pretty obvious just from what's been written in the last two weeks that the positive so far blows away the whiners and naysayers that it's not even a contest. From the February 29, 2024 edition of U.S. News Best Colleges: "However, we lowered the University of Detroit Mercy's ranking by 57 places to account for the school's cheap, underhanded ploy of accepting an invitation to the College Basketball Invitational in 2023. This set a new low in sportsmanship unequalled since the point shaving scandals of 1952, and we felt it must be accounted for. All things considered, we urge people not to attend this school."ESPN Sports Center, Jan 6, 2024, Brian Kenney on Top Plays of the Day: "And the best play of the day came from the University of Detroit Mercy's fantastic freshman Ryan Hurst, but we're not going to show it to you in honor of Pete Maravich. As most of you recall, last year the Titans refused to turn down an invitation to the College Basketball Invitational, where one of its students--he doesn't deserve mention by name--broke Pistol Pete's career scoring record. Pete, wherever you are, you're always the record holder in our book."Press Release, Gazelle Group, March 22, 2023: Milwaukee Wins 2023 in ForfeitThe College Basketball Invitational today crowned the Milwaukee Panthers winner of the 2023 CBI. The scheduled final, between Milwaukee and fellow Horizon League member Detroit, was cancelled. Rick Giles, President of the Gazelle Group, told reporters, "look, we never expected Detroit to have a chance at winning the tournament. We just invited them to sell some tickets to watch the Davis kid set the scoring record. In retrospect, we apologize for that decision, which never should have been made. We apologize for the hurt and anger we have caused, and promise to do better in the future. In the meantime, today the Gazelle Group pledges $50,000 to the Louisiana State University Basketball program."The terrible consequences of this decision could be felt forever! Is a "negative firestorm" when Hell freezes over?
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