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Post by bigchuck on Oct 6, 2019 16:19:25 GMT -5
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Post by kevinudm on Oct 6, 2019 22:29:27 GMT -5
This is a rather ugly development. According the Detroit New article, every year Kampe will receive a bonus for one of the guarantee games on Oakland's schedule. The AD will select which game benefit's Kampe's bank account; this year it will be either Maryland or Syracuse. Kampe will receive the guarantee amount ($90K or $95K), less Oakland's travel expenses.
Coaches should be scheduling based on what's in the best interest of their program and their university, rather than having a direct financial stake in the process. Worse yet, in this scenario Kampe benefits from stinting on travel expenses. No need for a hotel after the Syracuse game - everyone get on the bus, and we'll make a quick stop at McDonalds en route to Michigan.
I don't mean to attack Kampe; I'm sure that he'll do right by his team and his university. But his contract as described by the Detroit News is poorly designed
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Post by motorcitysam on Oct 7, 2019 7:48:58 GMT -5
"Lazy and incorrect" should be printed on Tony Paul's business cards. Davis clearly has better credentials.
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Post by motorcitysam on Oct 7, 2019 7:50:41 GMT -5
This is a rather ugly development. According the Detroit New article, every year Kampe will receive a bonus for one of the guarantee games on Oakland's schedule. The AD will select which game benefit's Kampe's bank account; this year it will be either Maryland or Syracuse. Kampe will receive the guarantee amount ($90K or $95K), less Oakland's travel expenses. Coaches should be scheduling based on what's in the best interest of their program and their university, rather than having a direct financial stake in the process. Worse yet, in this scenario Kampe benefits from stinting on travel expenses. No need for a hotel after the Syracuse game - everyone get on the bus, and we'll make a quick stop at McDonalds en route to Michigan. I don't mean to attack Kampe; I'm sure that he'll do right by his team and his university. But his contract as described by the Detroit News is poorly designed Agreed. I don't think Kampe would take advantage of the program, but I think generally speaking it is a bad idea.
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Post by ptctitan on Oct 7, 2019 8:01:16 GMT -5
I think Mike Davis has a much better resume. One could also argue that Bronkema at Ferris State has a better resume. And Perry Watson has a much better resume than Kampe even though they were never HL opponents.
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Post by Commissioner on Oct 7, 2019 8:09:53 GMT -5
"Lazy and incorrect" should be printed on Tony Paul's business cards. Davis clearly has better credentials. I don't read him as saying that Kampe has better credentials than absolutely every coach in the league right now. I read him as saying that he has had better credentials than many if not most HL coaches since OU entered the league in 2014, and has been paid less than most of those guys. The quote: I'm not sure Kampe has a more impressive resume than Ray McCallum or Steve Hawkins or Keno Davis or even Rob Murphy, but it's at least arguable. But he's also paid a lot less. And he's probably done more off the court than any of those others to boost his program--he's taken it from D-II to what is, year in and year out, one of the top 2-3 programs in the HL. I think we should read this a bit more charitably. Kampe has probably been underpaid when you compare his acheivements to those of his contemporaries in the mid-major ranks. Let's not be hypersensitive to every word Tony Paul writes. He's about the only game in town, he at least provides some coverage to mid-majors when few others do, and we should cultivate rather than irritate him.
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Post by Commissioner on Oct 7, 2019 8:16:02 GMT -5
This is a rather ugly development. According the Detroit New article, every year Kampe will receive a bonus for one of the guarantee games on Oakland's schedule. The AD will select which game benefit's Kampe's bank account; this year it will be either Maryland or Syracuse. Kampe will receive the guarantee amount ($90K or $95K), less Oakland's travel expenses. Coaches should be scheduling based on what's in the best interest of their program and their university, rather than having a direct financial stake in the process. Worse yet, in this scenario Kampe benefits from stinting on travel expenses. No need for a hotel after the Syracuse game - everyone get on the bus, and we'll make a quick stop at McDonalds en route to Michigan. I don't mean to attack Kampe; I'm sure that he'll do right by his team and his university. But his contract as described by the Detroit News is poorly designed This seems odd to me. If the AD gets to choose, he may not choose the low travel cost game. And since every Horizon/MAC mid-major plays at least 1 guarantee game a year, why not just give Kampe an $80K boost? I suppose this encouraged Kampe to find the highest paying guarantee games possible, but I'm not sure how that helps the University. Maybe they really want to make sure that they don't schedule "cheap" guarantees for $70,000, though I'm not really sure why they would care, and if they did I assume they could control that more directly. A coach who wanted to work this might just schedule 1 guarantee, for the highest rate he can get. And some guarantees come with hotel paid. I suppose that would now be a selling point for the coach, since that would essentially go straight to his pocket--if the AD chose that game. Anyway, doesn't really matter. to us To me it just seems more odd than ugly.
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Post by motorcitysam on Oct 7, 2019 9:10:28 GMT -5
"Lazy and incorrect" should be printed on Tony Paul's business cards. Davis clearly has better credentials. I don't read him as saying that Kampe has better credentials than absolutely every coach in the league right now. I read him as saying that he has had better credentials than many if not most HL coaches since OU entered the league in 2014, and has been paid less than most of those guys. The quote: I'm not sure Kampe has a more impressive resume than Ray McCallum or Steve Hawkins or Keno Davis or even Rob Murphy, but it's at least arguable. But he's also paid a lot less. And he's probably done more off the court than any of those others to boost his program--he's taken it from D-II to what is, year in and year out, one of the top 2-3 programs in the HL. I think we should read this a bit more charitably. Kampe has probably been underpaid when you compare his acheivements to those of his contemporaries in the mid-major ranks. Let's not be hypersensitive to every word Tony Paul writes. He's about the only game in town, he at least provides some coverage to mid-majors when few others do, and we should cultivate rather than irritate him. Hypersensitive? He clearly said Kampe was the lowest compensated D1 coach in the state and immediately followed that by saying he has a better resume than his mid major counterparts. You don't think that was him saying he had a better resume than Davis, a mid major counterpart 30 minutes away? Yes, Kampe has been paid less than some of his contemporaries, but Paul could have made that point without the falsehood that he has a better resume than Davis. Yes, Paul is the only game in town but he apparently gets a chunk of his information from the same place fans do; internet message boards. Would anyone miss his coverage if it went away? Would we know less than we know now? I am not buying the "be nice to the guy doing a bad job or he might do worse" line of thinking.
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Post by Commissioner on Oct 7, 2019 11:29:02 GMT -5
I don't read him as saying that Kampe has better credentials than absolutely every coach in the league right now. I read him as saying that he has had better credentials than many if not most HL coaches since OU entered the league in 2014, and has been paid less than most of those guys. The quote: I'm not sure Kampe has a more impressive resume than Ray McCallum or Steve Hawkins or Keno Davis or even Rob Murphy, but it's at least arguable. But he's also paid a lot less. And he's probably done more off the court than any of those others to boost his program--he's taken it from D-II to what is, year in and year out, one of the top 2-3 programs in the HL. I think we should read this a bit more charitably. Kampe has probably been underpaid when you compare his acheivements to those of his contemporaries in the mid-major ranks. Let's not be hypersensitive to every word Tony Paul writes. He's about the only game in town, he at least provides some coverage to mid-majors when few others do, and we should cultivate rather than irritate him. Hypersensitive? He clearly said Kampe was the lowest compensated D1 coach in the state and immediately followed that by saying he has a better resume than his mid major counterparts. You don't think that was him saying he had a better resume than Davis, a mid major counterpart 30 minutes away? Yes, Kampe has been paid less than some of his contemporaries, but Paul could have made that point without the falsehood that he has a better resume than Davis. Yes, Paul is the only game in town but he apparently gets a chunk of his information from the same place fans do; internet message boards. Would anyone miss his coverage if it went away? Would we know less than we know now? I am not buying the "be nice to the guy doing a bad job or he might do worse" line of thinking. I don't read it that way. He doesn't say "any of his contemporaries" or anything. I mean, you can read it that way, if you like picking fights. "Al Kaline earned less than other right fielders, despite having better credentials than his counterparts." WHAT! Al Kaline better than Babe Ruth! Better than Hank Aaron! That's just lazy, stupid commentary." Yeah, you can do that, if that's how you want to read it. Or you can read it as a general comparison. The former is certainly not a necessary reading of the sentence, and not a very charitable one. We live in a world in which everybody seems to want to read the worst into what anybody says. If someone feels a need to clarify the record, I don't know that it's necessary to lambaste the guy. And by the way, it is an opinion statement. Though I wouldn't agree with it, I think a reasonable person could conclude that Kampe has a more impressive resume, especially if referring to what he's done in his current job--in the state--or by crediting him with taking OU's programs from no where to arguably the best mid-major program in the state. I guess I'm just tired of the Twitter mentality, the John Oliver/Samantha Bee approach, of always reading the worst into what anyone says. As to the "be nice to the guy doing a bad job or he might do worse" line of thinking, I think of it more like "be fair to the guy doing a bad job and maybe he'll do better," especially given that we have no control over his employment. Would we be less informed if he went away? No. But lots of people we want to come out to our games would be. The News and Free Press still have readership.
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Post by motorcitysam on Oct 7, 2019 13:36:07 GMT -5
Hypersensitive? He clearly said Kampe was the lowest compensated D1 coach in the state and immediately followed that by saying he has a better resume than his mid major counterparts. You don't think that was him saying he had a better resume than Davis, a mid major counterpart 30 minutes away? Yes, Kampe has been paid less than some of his contemporaries, but Paul could have made that point without the falsehood that he has a better resume than Davis. Yes, Paul is the only game in town but he apparently gets a chunk of his information from the same place fans do; internet message boards. Would anyone miss his coverage if it went away? Would we know less than we know now? I am not buying the "be nice to the guy doing a bad job or he might do worse" line of thinking. I don't read it that way. He doesn't say "any of his contemporaries" or anything. I mean, you can read it that way, if you like picking fights. "Al Kaline earned less than other right fielders, despite having better credentials than his counterparts." WHAT! Al Kaline better than Babe Ruth! Better than Hank Aaron! That's just lazy, stupid commentary." Yeah, you can do that, if that's how you want to read it. Or you can read it as a general comparison. The former is certainly not a necessary reading of the sentence, and not a very charitable one. We live in a world in which everybody seems to want to read the worst into what anybody says. If someone feels a need to clarify the record, I don't know that it's necessary to lambaste the guy. And by the way, it is an opinion statement. Though I wouldn't agree with it, I think a reasonable person could conclude that Kampe has a more impressive resume, especially if referring to what he's done in his current job--in the state--or by crediting him with taking OU's programs from no where to arguably the best mid-major program in the state. I guess I'm just tired of the Twitter mentality, the John Oliver/Samantha Bee approach, of always reading the worst into what anyone says. As to the "be nice to the guy doing a bad job or he might do worse" line of thinking, I think of it more like "be fair to the guy doing a bad job and maybe he'll do better," especially given that we have no control over his employment. Would we be less informed if he went away? No. But lots of people we want to come out to our games would be. The News and Free Press still have readership. Since when is pointing out that someone writing for a major media outlet made a false statement an example of "picking a fight"? And the fictional Al Kaline example is way over the top. If Tony Paul didn't mean to include all of the state's mid major coaches, he could have easily said "some" or "most". He didn't do that, so apparently he was counting on readers using their telepathic abilities to ascertain that he just meant "some of them". You say it's an opinion statement, but there is no objective way to say that Kampe has a better resume than Davis, unless you add in a bunch of those narrow qualifications that you came up with to support him. I would bet not even Kampe would say he had a better resume than Davis. I guess I'm just tired of the Sean Hannity/Tucker Carlson approach of defending obvious false statements of someone you support by saying "Oh, he really didn't mean what he said".
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Post by Commissioner on Oct 7, 2019 13:59:16 GMT -5
I don't read it that way. He doesn't say "any of his contemporaries" or anything. I mean, you can read it that way, if you like picking fights. "Al Kaline earned less than other right fielders, despite having better credentials than his counterparts." WHAT! Al Kaline better than Babe Ruth! Better than Hank Aaron! That's just lazy, stupid commentary." Yeah, you can do that, if that's how you want to read it. Or you can read it as a general comparison. The former is certainly not a necessary reading of the sentence, and not a very charitable one. We live in a world in which everybody seems to want to read the worst into what anybody says. If someone feels a need to clarify the record, I don't know that it's necessary to lambaste the guy. And by the way, it is an opinion statement. Though I wouldn't agree with it, I think a reasonable person could conclude that Kampe has a more impressive resume, especially if referring to what he's done in his current job--in the state--or by crediting him with taking OU's programs from no where to arguably the best mid-major program in the state. I guess I'm just tired of the Twitter mentality, the John Oliver/Samantha Bee approach, of always reading the worst into what anyone says. As to the "be nice to the guy doing a bad job or he might do worse" line of thinking, I think of it more like "be fair to the guy doing a bad job and maybe he'll do better," especially given that we have no control over his employment. Would we be less informed if he went away? No. But lots of people we want to come out to our games would be. The News and Free Press still have readership. Since when is pointing out that someone writing for a major media outlet made a false statement an example of "picking a fight"? And the fictional Al Kaline example is way over the top. If Tony Paul didn't mean to include all of the state's mid major coaches, he could have easily said "some" or "most". He didn't do that, so apparently he was counting on readers using their telepathic abilities to ascertain that he just meant "some of them". You say it's an opinion statement, but there is no objective way to say that Kampe has a better resume than Davis, unless you add in a bunch of those narrow qualifications that you came up with to support him. I would bet not even Kampe would say he had a better resume than Davis. I guess I'm just tired of the Sean Hannity/Tucker Carlson approach of defending obvious false statements of someone you support by saying "Oh, he really didn't mean what he said". I don't quite know why you're so worked up about this. The Kaline example isn't over the top--it merely reflects the same type of sentence, and one that most people would have no problem with. I think Tony Paul meant exactly what he said--that Kampe has long been the state's lowest paid D1 coach, despite a more impressive resume than "his mid-major counterparts." Now, what he meant by that last phrase is hardly clear, and it's not even clear if it's intended as a statement of fact or opinion. Again, you're reading into the sentence "ALL mid-major coaches in the state." I'm just saying, that's not how you have to read the sentence (as in my Kaline example--why is that over the top?). Everybody wants to jump on everything these days. I'm just suggesting the world would be a bit happier place if we didn't insist on absolutism, as in "the only possible way to read Paul's statement is that he meant EVERY mid-major coach in the state, AND that that is not merely an opinion, but a statement of fact." How about this: "Greg Kampe gets more ink than other coaches, despite having a less impressive resume than his mid-major counterparts." Would you pick that apart because his resume isn't less impressive than ALL other mid-major coaches? Or all others who get less ink? You could. But it doesn't really say that, does it? One thing I've learned in years of doing peer review, book reviews, and general criticism of academic literature is that you need to give statements the best possible reading, not the worst. But I won't say any more on it. I just didn't read Paul's statement as you did, suggesting that there are multiple ways to read it.
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Post by ptctitan on Oct 7, 2019 14:07:27 GMT -5
I don't see the big deal here. Tony Paul clearly likes Kampe. And he usually writes favorably about him. Even Tony Paul seemed to question this bonus arrangement.
Basically, the bonus arrangement suggests that Oakland will not budget higher comp for its coach and wants it paid for by an external funding source. That suggests a lack of financial commitment to a program by Oakland and merely a commitment to a well-known coach. What happens if/when he retires? He almost had to retire permanently a few years ago when he had sepsis. If I were a younger high school recruit, I'd put this as a negative if I were considering an Oakland offer. What's the school's commitment to the program once Kampe retires?
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Post by bigchuck on Oct 7, 2019 15:05:24 GMT -5
I don't see the big deal here. Tony Paul clearly likes Kampe. And he usually writes favorably about him. Even Tony Paul seemed to question this bonus arrangement. Basically, the bonus arrangement suggests that Oakland will not budget higher comp for its coach and wants it paid for by an external funding source. That suggests a lack of financial commitment to a program by Oakland and merely a commitment to a well-known coach. What happens if/when he retires? He almost had to retire permanently a few years ago when he had sepsis. If I were a younger high school recruit, I'd put this as a negative if I were considering an Oakland offer. What's the school's commitment to the program once Kampe retires? ptc, I never expected a causal comment could cause such a discussion. I am not on twitter, and have never said a thing about Tony Paul. It was not a twitter. It was an article on the Detroit News website. It was "lazy" journalism. He wrote the line probably without a lot of thought. Almost everyone would agree that by most definitions Davis clearly has a better resume. Nothing more was meant. If I was Kampe I would be very unhappy with that contract. It certainly does not show him the respect he deserves based on his resume with Oakland University. I am not talking about the amount as much as the gimmick that is in it. Even after using that gimmick they do not give him the control, or certainty of specificity, but leaving it up to the AD's discretion. Certainly he deserves more respect. He is a Division II coach who successfully transitioned the program into a legitimate Division I program. At the same time he has served as the respected face of OU athletics.
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Post by motorcitysam on Oct 7, 2019 15:31:28 GMT -5
Since when is pointing out that someone writing for a major media outlet made a false statement an example of "picking a fight"? And the fictional Al Kaline example is way over the top. If Tony Paul didn't mean to include all of the state's mid major coaches, he could have easily said "some" or "most". He didn't do that, so apparently he was counting on readers using their telepathic abilities to ascertain that he just meant "some of them". You say it's an opinion statement, but there is no objective way to say that Kampe has a better resume than Davis, unless you add in a bunch of those narrow qualifications that you came up with to support him. I would bet not even Kampe would say he had a better resume than Davis. I guess I'm just tired of the Sean Hannity/Tucker Carlson approach of defending obvious false statements of someone you support by saying "Oh, he really didn't mean what he said". I don't quite know why you're so worked up about this. The Kaline example isn't over the top--it merely reflects the same type of sentence, and one that most people would have no problem with. I think Tony Paul meant exactly what he said--that Kampe has long been the state's lowest paid D1 coach, despite a more impressive resume than "his mid-major counterparts." Now, what he meant by that last phrase is hardly clear, and it's not even clear if it's intended as a statement of fact or opinion. Again, you're reading into the sentence "ALL mid-major coaches in the state." I'm just saying, that's not how you have to read the sentence (as in my Kaline example--why is that over the top?). Everybody wants to jump on everything these days. I'm just suggesting the world would be a bit happier place if we didn't insist on absolutism, as in "the only possible way to read Paul's statement is that he meant EVERY mid-major coach in the state, AND that that is not merely an opinion, but a statement of fact." How about this: "Greg Kampe gets more ink than other coaches, despite having a less impressive resume than his mid-major counterparts." Would you pick that apart because his resume isn't less impressive than ALL other mid-major coaches? Or all others who get less ink? You could. But it doesn't really say that, does it? One thing I've learned in years of doing peer review, book reviews, and general criticism of academic literature is that you need to give statements the best possible reading, not the worst. But I won't say any more on it. I just didn't read Paul's statement as you did, suggesting that there are multiple ways to read it. Who's worked up? I typed a quick two sentence comment about Paul's statement, and the next thing I know you're admonishing me not to be "hypersensitive". I'm not reading into his statement. I'm reading what he wrote and drawing a logical conclusion of his meaning based on what he wrote. Like I said, he could have made it clearer if he meant something other than the obvious meaning. Your Kaline example is over the top because even casual baseball fans would know that Al wasn't as a good as Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth, but a casual basketball fan reading Paul's comment might not know that Davis has been to the NCAA tournament four times since Kampe last got there, or that Davis has a total of nine trips to the NCAA tournament while Kampe has a total of three. They might actually read his statement and believe that Kampe had better credentials than Davis, since he mentioned D1 coaches in the state in the same sentence as he mentioned mid major counterparts. I'm not sure why you're so intent on defending Tony Paul, but that's your right. I won't suggest you stop being "hypersensitive".
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