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Post by Commissioner on Apr 10, 2020 17:52:56 GMT -5
Rashad Phillips says it's Antoine. What do you say?
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Post by titantarheel on Apr 11, 2020 7:35:47 GMT -5
It’s def NOT Antoine. He’s a heckuva shooter no doubt, but he’s not as good at driving and getting to the rim.
I didn’t see most of the guys on the list play so I went with Shad. Great shot and range, plus great ball handling and quickness to get open or to drive by his defender.
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Post by ptctitan on Apr 11, 2020 8:00:56 GMT -5
The best way you can judge Rashad versus the older players like DeBusschere and Long is to subtract the number of 3-point shots made from his total. That gives Rashad 1971 career points as a pre-3 point basket player. That still makes Rashad one of the greatest Titans ever.
The thing about Long and Duerod is that so many of their baskets would have been 3-point baskets in the modern era; but there is no way of ascertaining what their total points would have been in the modern era. So, I deduct the 348 points from Shad's total and he is still top 5.
However, since the topic is scorer - not shooter - I voted for DeBusschere. Long would be second.
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Post by udballer on Apr 11, 2020 12:13:31 GMT -5
Went with Haywood. Debusschere and Phillips tied for 2nd. Duerod and Tullos round out the top 5.
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Post by motorcitysam on Apr 11, 2020 14:50:03 GMT -5
Haywood for me. I saw him play in the pros, but not in college. However, his stats as a Titan are incredible. He averaged 32 ppg while shooting 57% from the floor and 77% from the line. He did that on a good team that went 16-10 against a very tough schedule. The Titans played six games against opponents ranked in the top 16 in the country that season.
Didn't see Murrey, Dave D, Ebben or Swanson. Stats are good for their eras, but not good enough to overtake Spencer, in my opinion.
Saw John Long, Phillips, Tolbert, and Tullos as Titans. To me, Long is the best of that group. I put him at a solid second on the list, behind only Haywood.
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Post by udballer on Apr 11, 2020 17:44:14 GMT -5
Two people (so far) actually have AD at the top of the list. I'm hoping those folks just started following the Titans in the BA / Mike Davis era.
I think you could make a case for most of the guys on the list (and some not on the list)... but AD is a tough case to make. I may list him right next to Paris Bass at this point in his career. Maybe just below Brandon Cotton.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2020 18:30:41 GMT -5
Kind of a loaded question. Almost every year, MLB fans argue about the MVP award - does it go to the best player?, How do you define valuable? Can the MVP actually be from a losing team? Can a pitcher receive it, or does it need to be any everyday player?
In this case, greatest scorer: should it take into account scoring efficiency or shooting percentage?, Is it simply total career points or scoring average? Should a great scorer that played less than 4 seasons get penalized? Does team success carry any weight - A player that takes most of the shots on bad teams vs a player that takes fewer shots on a better, more successful and balanced winning teams? How do you compare different eras and styles of play (3's vs no 3's; Perry's defensive style vs Davis and BA's no defense style)?, etc. Not easy questions to answer. At the end of the day, Spencer's one season at over 32ppg, over 56% shooting, on a team listed in the AP poll for part of the season, playing a difficult schedule, did it for me. If he would have played 4 seasons in a fairly equal amount of games as other 4 year players, is there any doubt that from a sheer numbers point, he'd be at the top of the list?
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Post by motorcitysam on Apr 11, 2020 18:44:41 GMT -5
Kind of a loaded question. Almost every year, MLB fans argue about the MVP award - does it go to the best player?, How do you define valuable? Can the MVP actually be from a losing team? Can a pitcher receive it, or does it need to be any everyday player? In this case, greatest scorer: should it take into account scoring efficiency or shooting percentage?, Is it simply total career points or scoring average? Should a great scorer that played less than 4 seasons get penalized? Does team success carry any weight - A player that takes most of the shots on bad teams vs a player that takes fewer shots on a better, more successful and balanced winning teams? How do you compare different eras and styles of play (3's vs no 3's; Perry's defensive style vs Davis and BA's no defense style)?, etc. Not easy questions to answer. At the end of the day, Spencer's one season at over 32ppg, over 56% shooting, on a team listed in the AP poll for part of the season, playing a difficult schedule, did it for me. If he would have played 4 seasons in a fairly equal amount of games as other 4 year players, is there any doubt that from a sheer numbers point, he'd be at the top of the list? Excellent point.
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Post by candf80 on Apr 11, 2020 19:01:39 GMT -5
Considering that Haywood's junior year he was the MVP and leading scorer of the ABA and was good for 20 a game for the Sonics in what would have been his senior season, I think scout is safe in his assumption.
Another point regarding Long and Duerod is that they sat a lot after games were decided. Neither played 30 minutes per game in 1977-78. Nothing close to the 38 minutes per game that Davis puts up.
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Post by ptctitan on Apr 11, 2020 20:52:45 GMT -5
The only reason I didn't select Haywood was that he only played one season as a Titan. To be considered the greatest anything in history, I think a Titan player should play more than just one season. That one season we started fast but limped to the finish line. He did have the single greatest scoring season ever in the non-3 point shot era. And he was not bad as a DJ on the campus radio station. But for greatest scorer in Titan history, I pick DeBusschere for his career's work and the fact that his teams played and won against some strong opponents. Had Spencer stayed here, he likely would have broken DeBusschere's records.
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Post by JDetroitTitan on Apr 13, 2020 10:22:51 GMT -5
Rashad Phillips Has the historical record so what the argument. Until someone beats his record he is the king of the mountain.
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Post by udballer on Apr 13, 2020 13:13:02 GMT -5
Rashad Phillips Has the historical record so what the argument. Until someone beats his record he is the king of the mountain. It's not that simple. As others have mentioned, being "the greatest scorer in history" should not be a direct result of the number of shots taken. IF I was fortunate enough to have played basketball at UDM (which I did not) and I was given free reign to take 60 shots per game over my 4 years,... I could theoretically be the leading scorer in school history with 2 more points than Rashad. Simultaneously, I would also be one of the worst "scorers" in school history.
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Post by JDetroitTitan on Apr 13, 2020 13:34:36 GMT -5
Rashad Phillips Has the historical record so what the argument. Until someone beats his record he is the king of the mountain. It's not that simple. As others have mentioned, being "the greatest scorer in history" should not be a direct result of the number of shots taken. IF I was fortunate enough to have played basketball at UDM (which I did not) and I was given free reign to take 60 shots per game over my 4 years,... I would theoretically be the leading scorer in school history. Simultaneously, I would also be one of the worst "scorers" in school history. The greatest score implies you made the most baskets. I can't watch endless tape and rate each shot that a player did, that impossible. If AD stays for four years he will have the crown. A lot of people might not like me saying this but I don't think any of those other players on the list had the best defenders on then for the entire game and most of the defenders are at least 2 to 4 inches taller then AD, at least 10-15 lbs heavier and more athletic. He never got shut down an entire game this year or last year.
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Post by bigchuck on Apr 13, 2020 17:17:44 GMT -5
Reviewing DeBusschere career he was eligible for 80 Games (1,985 points) vs. Philips 131 games 2,379 points). Forget 3 point vs 2 point shots. If DeBusschere had played in as many games he would have scored over 3,000 points. Freshmen were not eligible in that era, but both played their entire career with Detroit.
I agree Haywood was the greatest single one season scorer, but he was a one year rental. In my opinion, you don't deserve to be called the greatest scorer in Titan history for one year.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 18:08:03 GMT -5
Reviewing DeBusschere career he was eligible for 80 Games (1,985 points) vs. Philips 131 games 2,379 points). Forget 3 point vs 2 point shots. If DeBusschere had played in as many games he would have scored over 3,000 points. Freshmen were not eligible in that era, but both played their entire career with Detroit. I agree Haywood was the greatest single one season scorer, but he was a one year rental. In my opinion, you don't deserve to be called the greatest scorer in Titan history for one year. Fair enough. I appreciate the point you're making it definitely makes sense. The greatest scorer is simply the guy at the top of the career scoring list
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