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Post by Rogobob77 on Apr 17, 2020 23:05:38 GMT -5
Here’s the cover of the 1980 media guide for the Midwestern City Conference, documenting the University of Detroit’s first year in the league. This year marks the 40th anniversary of Detroit Mercy joining that athletic association (renamed the Horizon League in 2001).
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Post by Rogobob77 on Apr 18, 2020 20:10:31 GMT -5
At this anniversary juncture, some reflections on what might have been.
1. I recall reading a newspaper report that during his coaching or AD tenure, Vitale wanted to get U-D into the Metro, but they turned us down. Schools in that conference at that time:
Memphis St. Louisville Cincinnati Tulane Florida St. St. Louis Virginia Tech
That conference eventually died out with the creation of the Great Midwest, which Marquette chose to join (becoming the first big departure from the MCC).
2. Did we really have a chance to join the original Big East in 1980? Some say we did, not sure if that is 100% true. Here’s the lineup of schools when that conference first came together:
Connecticut Boston College Georgetown Syracuse Seton Hall Providence Boston College Villanova St. John’s
Read that Holy Cross also got an invite but they declined.
Travel would have been expensive no doubt. But what a “what if” if the Titans were the tenth team in that original configuration.
3. I bet we had a decent chance to talk our way into an invite to the Missouri Valley in 1980 when our stock was higher (we were a member of that conference back in the day when the school played football). I don’t know if that was ever seriously explored at the time.
4. The MCC had the potential to be something special before it all fell apart. Marquette, Dayton, St. Louis, Duquesne and LaSalle would eventually join (and Oklahoma City and Oral Roberts depart, addition by subtraction). If DePaul could have been enticed to join, I think that would have cemented things. Creighton, Bradley, and Drake explored membership at various times, Loyola (Md.) as well.
Notre Dame was a member of the MCC for all sports other than basketball and football for a few years, who knows, in an alternate universe where it all comes together, ND joins the MCC for hoops too.
How cool to be in conference lineup something along the lines of this, perhaps set up in two geographically-compact East/West divisions:
Bradley Butler Creighton Dayton DePaul Detroit Drake Duquesne Evansville LaSalle Loyola-Chicago Loyola (Md.) Marquette Notre Dame St. Louis Xavier
All private schools, solid academics, basketball tradition galore, predominantly Catholic institutions, lots of major media markets.
6. Based on conversations I had at the time with AD Brad Kinsman, I think we did have a real chance to join the A-10 along with Xavier when they left the MCC for that league in 1995. But we didn’t make the move due to financial considerations.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 19, 2020 9:16:15 GMT -5
I've been over this at length a zillion times: Detroit was never considered for membership in the Big East. Never. Some say we were offered membership. It's Zero percent true.
It's too bad that the MCC fell apart. The MCC was designed to be a midwestern version of the Big East, and was seeing that goal come into sight in the late 1980s when Marquette and Dayton joined. Plus Notre Dame was a member for non-revenue sports. The MCC was actually a predator conference for a time, nearly luring Bradley as the MVC was threatening to break apart over football. DePaul had a standing offer to join, and had they done so, it's not inconceivable that Notre Dame would have joined for hoops.
But the MVC pulled off a smart move with the creation of MVC Football, and held their conference together. DePaul totally screwed us (which is why I still hate them) because they refused to join a conference with Loyola. They were then a driving force behind creation of the Great Midwest, which pulled Marquette, and St. Louis out of the MCC immediately, starting the MCC's collapse. Duquesne and La Salle were added as pretty decent replacements, but then Dayton also bolted for the Great Midwest, which in turn made Duquesne scurry back to the A10, tail between its legs (Duquesne had joined the MCC largely at Dayton's urging). And Xavier and Evansville saw the writing on the wall and got out. (Butler tried but was turned down for MVC membership--oops!). The Titans probably could have gotten into the Great Midwest then--Detroit was still one of the very top recruiting markets, so the coaches in the new league wanted Detroit (the Presidents didn't), and we were definitely considered for membership there. But that was at the nadir of the school's financial issues, and there was neither the funding nor the vision to push to get into the Great Midwest.
In 1995, the Great Midwest morphed into Conference USA by absorbing the rump of the Metro Conference, Houston, and a couple of the better Sunbelt teams. CUSA was a very good conference for a time, but eventually got plucked over by the Big East and later the new AAC. It has slowly been recovering, but it's not going to reach its former heights, and is now a football conference as well. So had we gone to the Great Midwest, it's hard to figure out what we might have done from there. We'd either be a basketball only school (I think the only one) left in a sprawling, ugly CUSA, or we'd have had to move somewhere else. Perhaps we would have ended up in the A10 like Dayton. That would still be, I think, the best possible conference for us. But it's probably as likely we'd have gone back to the MCC/Horizon (for the financial reasons Rogo noted as keeping us out of the A10), or possibly ended up the Ohio Valley or Summit or something. Or maybe we would have had more incentive to try for the MVC back around 1999-2000, when that might have been realistic.
So many missed opportunities, that's for sure. Unfortunately, I don't see those opportunities coming up again. Detroit is a much smaller market, and much less fertile recruiting ground, and except for a few years under Ray McCallum, we've had almost no basketball success in the past 15 years. 50 years back UD was considered a major urban university, and I don't think it is anymore, both because it is smaller in enrollment, and other schools have grown.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 19, 2020 9:22:51 GMT -5
Maybe we can be the impetus behind forming a "has been" conference, schools that have fallen the furthest from their glory days without actually leaving D1. We, Long Island, and Holy Cross would be a nice core. Canisius, Niagara, maybe the two St. Francis's could be considered.
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Post by Rogobob77 on Apr 19, 2020 9:40:09 GMT -5
If some seismic development in college athletics caused the MVC to split leaving their private non-football members hanging, perhaps a 21st century version of the MCC could emerge, something like:
Bellarmine Bradley Detroit Mercy Drake Loyola Robert Morris St. Thomas (MN) Valparaiso
That would be no great shakes conference, but it’s probably the kind of league that would be a good fit for a program like Detroit Mercy.
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Post by uofdfan1983 on Apr 19, 2020 10:19:24 GMT -5
Bob and Commish: as usual, great historical wrapups. Back in the 80s I would root for all of the Catholic Schools. But DePaul, Dayton and ND taught me a hard lesson. Each of those schools did ONLY what they perceived as best for them. Yes, DePaul could have been the school that put the MCC over the hump and made it a Midwest Version of the Big East. Instead, as mentioned, they didn't want to join a league with Loyola. Yes, ND could have joined for basketball and made a HUGE difference. Instead they sucked up minor league championships and NOBODY talked about ND being in the MCC. So it had no positive impact on the overall growth of the MCC. And ND was a NOBODY in hoops so there was no reason not to join. Yes, Dayton tried to manipulate the league to their liking and then left abruptly for what they thought was a "better" league that had no geographic or private-school sensibility for them. And that was PW's first season and we won the MCC Championship and had to stay home because Dayton's departure cost the league it's automatic bid.
So those are my reasons for not caring about anybody else anymore except dear ole U-D. Go Titans!
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Post by calihanmole on Apr 19, 2020 10:51:09 GMT -5
LOL. ND was a nobody in hoops? Final Four appearance in 1978. Elite 8 in 1979. Sweet 16 in 1981 and 1987. Look at the Phelps era, the Irish danced nearly every year.
ND was independent in basketball back then because they wanted to emulate the football program and be different and have a national profile. That’s why they played UCLA twice most seasons - you can’t do that so easily when you’re in a conference. Once ND had some bad years after Phelps left and the scheduling game changed, ND was basically forced to join a conference for basketball and there’s no way they would have slummed around the MCC. The Big East was the best we could do only because of the NBC football money forces the independence in football to remain. I’m still surprised the ACC gave ND the ability to join and be football independent but here we are.
I don’t get the criticism of schools doing what’s “best for them.” Isn’t that why schools exist? To make decisions best for their finances, reputation, and therefore the livelihood of their alumni and future alumni? The idea that ND “owes” anything to other catholic schools has never made sense to me. Especially when you consider that ND is arguably the only major Catholic school that takes its Catholicity seriously (at least 80% Catholic undergrad student body, chapel in every dormitory and college building, single sex dorms with priest and nun rectors, charter that says a priest will always be president, and many other things that solidify the Catholic identity). Sure, there are a few smaller Catholic schools like Steubenville that really put their faith to work, but most other major Catholic schools have tried to become “elite” universities and put the Catholic aspect down the list. Like Boston College (aka Barely Catholic) and Georgetown. I’d admit that Dayton has mostly retained its Catholic identity and done so very well. Honestly, how “Catholic” is UDM these days? Not sure what % of the student body is Catholic but my sense is that UDM primarily attracts local students, many first gen, that don’t want to go to a huge university. The idea that ND should have taken a hit financially to start an athletic conference with schools like UDM and DePaul just because those schools were started by other Catholic orders seems like poor logic.
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Post by uofdfan1983 on Apr 19, 2020 11:20:39 GMT -5
I actually blame the MCC more than ND because we let them in. Was LeCrone the Executive Director way back then? Either ND led the MCC to believe they would join later on for men's bball (they were in for womens bball as soon as they joined) or the League HOPED for that eventuality. Either way, it wasn't gonna happen and we should have never asked them to join, or kicked them out after a couple of years when they didn't add mens hoops.
I understand why these schools take care of themselves first. My point is that WE need to take care of ourselves first. We need to act like we owe the MCC/Horizon nothing. We need to do what's best for us.
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Post by calihanmole on Apr 19, 2020 13:03:41 GMT -5
In this recent podcast (42:40) Mike Brey flat out says he’d rather be in the old Big East than the current ACC. And he says that scheduling Catholic schools in non-con is very important to him.
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Post by motorcitysam on Apr 19, 2020 13:34:20 GMT -5
Some of my MCC thoughts and reactions to the comments in this thread.
Hard to believe that we were actually in a conference with some of those teams. I remember specifically a great time I had sitting in the stands at Calihan watching us battle St. Louis. I remember those Xavier teams with Tyrone Hill and Derek Strong. We wasted too many of those years by being not very good.
Still, I can remember local sports journalists in the 80s saying that for U of D to reach our basketball potential, we needed to get out of that "church league". They didn't see the potential, either.
If Notre Dame was ever a "nobody" in basketball, it must have been before I started following college basketball in the mid 70s.
Obviously I don't hate DePaul, but I also don't hate Notre Dame, Marquette, or any other program for doing what was best for them. DePaul has struggled for a long time now, but I bet most of our fanbase would trade our last twenty years for theirs, if only for the conference affiliation. They have certainly benefited financially.
A branding note: "University of Detroit" sounds like a program that belongs in a league with Dayton, Providence, Xavier, DePaul, etc. "Detroit Mercy" sounds like a program in a league with St. Francis, Bellarmine, Merrimack, etc.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 19, 2020 16:29:11 GMT -5
Some of my MCC thoughts and reactions to the comments in this thread. A branding note: "University of Detroit" sounds like a program that belongs in a league with Dayton, Providence, Xavier, DePaul, etc. "Detroit Mercy" sounds like a program in a league with St. Francis, Bellarmine, Merrimack, etc. For sure.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 19, 2020 16:37:11 GMT -5
LOL. ND was a nobody in hoops? Final Four appearance in 1978. Elite 8 in 1979. Sweet 16 in 1981 and 1987. Look at the Phelps era, the Irish danced nearly every year. ND was independent in basketball back then because they wanted to emulate the football program and be different and have a national profile. That’s why they played UCLA twice most seasons - you can’t do that so easily when you’re in a conference. Once ND had some bad years after Phelps left and the scheduling game changed, ND was basically forced to join a conference for basketball and there’s no way they would have slummed around the MCC. The Big East was the best we could do only because of the NBC football money forces the independence in football to remain. I’m still surprised the ACC gave ND the ability to join and be football independent but here we are. I don’t get the criticism of schools doing what’s “best for them.” Isn’t that why schools exist? To make decisions best for their finances, reputation, and therefore the livelihood of their alumni and future alumni? The idea that ND “owes” anything to other catholic schools has never made sense to me. Especially when you consider that ND is arguably the only major Catholic school that takes its Catholicity seriously (at least 80% Catholic undergrad student body, chapel in every dormitory and college building, single sex dorms with priest and nun rectors, charter that says a priest will always be president, and many other things that solidify the Catholic identity). Sure, there are a few smaller Catholic schools like Steubenville that really put their faith to work, but most other major Catholic schools have tried to become “elite” universities and put the Catholic aspect down the list. Like Boston College (aka Barely Catholic) and Georgetown. I’d admit that Dayton has mostly retained its Catholic identity and done so very well. Honestly, how “Catholic” is UDM these days? Not sure what % of the student body is Catholic but my sense is that UDM primarily attracts local students, many first gen, that don’t want to go to a huge university. The idea that ND should have taken a hit financially to start an athletic conference with schools like UDM and DePaul just because those schools were started by other Catholic orders seems like poor logic. Notre Dame was an affiliate member from '86 through '95. From 1991-1995 the Irish were 66-82 in men's basketball, with 1 NIT appearance and 0 NCAA appearances, and never once appeared in the Top 25. With the growing need to join a conference in basketball, I suspect that had the MCC held together and added DePaul, a conference with Marquette, Dayton, DePaul, St. Louis, Xavier (by the mid-1990s a regular top 25 team), a resurgent Detroit and Butler, would have looked pretty good to them, at least for a few years. In the end, they'd be where they are now.
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Post by uofdfan1983 on Apr 19, 2020 18:13:05 GMT -5
Thanks for validating what I remember from those days, Commish: that ND just wasn't very good in mens hoops. I remember thinking they were just using the MCC. They won all the baseball titles, cross country titles, etc. They needed a league for their minor sports, won more of those titles than anyone else, and yet did nothing for the league. Again, just taking care of themselves, and the League allowed them to take advantage of us all. You are correct that even if they had joined for mens hoops back then, they would have moved on a long time ago.
I just want to return to relevance again and take care of ourselves. If the only way out is to dominate this stupid league for a few years...then let's get started on that path NOW.
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Post by calihanmole on Apr 19, 2020 18:35:16 GMT -5
Right, like I said, ND had some really bad years after Phelps left (1991) and MacLeod ran the MBB program into the ground. I think that by the mid 90s being independent in basketball made no sense anyway, and I doubt ND considered joining the MCC for even a second. If you think about it, what the Irish did in the 70s and 80s was really smart. They were able to run all of their revenue negative sports by competing with schools close and hence lose little money on them (plus, according to uofdfan, the Irish won a lot in those sports). Then, ND maximized revenue and its national brand by staying independent in football (playing USC, Navy, Stanford, and other schools like UM, BYU, etc.) and basketball (playing UCLA twice most years and other prime matchups). That enabled them to get a lot of tv coverage during an era when most games were not televised. Even though basketball was bad between 91-95, I wouldn’t call them a “nobody” because of 4 bad years under a coach that was clearly a hiring mistake. They certainly were not a nobody from 86-90 (their first 5 years as an affiliate) when they danced all 5 years. Interestingly, ND joined the Big East and MacLeod had 4 more years, all of them bad. Then one decent year under Doherty. Then 20 years and counting under Brey, nearly all of them very good with post season tournaments and a very high graduation rate for a MBB program.
More interesting to me, ND is almost doing the opposite of what it did in the 70s and 80s. Being in the ACC means that revenue negative sport athletes have to travel to Boston, Miami, other far away places which costs money and means time out of the classroom. All because of football and not being able to strike a good deal with the B1G.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 20, 2020 11:46:59 GMT -5
Right, like I said, ND had some really bad years after Phelps left (1991) and MacLeod ran the MBB program into the ground. I think that by the mid 90s being independent in basketball made no sense anyway, and I doubt ND considered joining the MCC for even a second. If you think about it, what the Irish did in the 70s and 80s was really smart. They were able to run all of their revenue negative sports by competing with schools close and hence lose little money on them (plus, according to uofdfan, the Irish won a lot in those sports). Then, ND maximized revenue and its national brand by staying independent in football (playing USC, Navy, Stanford, and other schools like UM, BYU, etc.) and basketball (playing UCLA twice most years and other prime matchups). That enabled them to get a lot of tv coverage during an era when most games were not televised. Even though basketball was bad between 91-95, I wouldn’t call them a “nobody” because of 4 bad years under a coach that was clearly a hiring mistake. They certainly were not a nobody from 86-90 (their first 5 years as an affiliate) when they danced all 5 years. Interestingly, ND joined the Big East and MacLeod had 4 more years, all of them bad. Then one decent year under Doherty. Then 20 years and counting under Brey, nearly all of them very good with post season tournaments and a very high graduation rate for a MBB program. More interesting to me, ND is almost doing the opposite of what it did in the 70s and 80s. Being in the ACC means that revenue negative sport athletes have to travel to Boston, Miami, other far away places which costs money and means time out of the classroom. All because of football and not being able to strike a good deal with the B1G. I'm sure Notre Dame never considered joining the MCC for basketball. Had Dayton and Marquette stayed in the league and DePaul joined, however, I believe they would have given it serious consideration in the early 90s. Even for the Irish, scheduling was becoming a problem (they'd long since ceased playing UCLA twice in a season, though they still played once every year), and the MCC might have been attractive for a time. They eventually joined the Big East for the 1996 season, and it was not until their 6th season there that they topped .500 in conference play. Anyway, all that doesn't much matter. "What if" talk can be fun, and I love "glory days" talk. Both can serve a purpose. But our challenge is not "what if," but "what now?"
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