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Post by motorcitysam on Mar 29, 2024 14:09:19 GMT -5
An idea came to me the other night while I was watching Seattle and Fairfield, two Catholic schools on opposite sides of the country, play in the CBI semifinals. Just kicking it around, and I wondered what your thoughts might be.
Do you think there would be any viability or interest in a post season tournament strictly for Catholic non-power programs who weren't invited to the NCAA or NIT? Would giving a tournament a specific focus result in more interest?
Could the College Insider Tournament (CIT) be more viable if it was re-booted as the Catholic Invitational Tournament? It couldn't even find a television home this year and could only field nine teams. Perhaps focusing on a select subset of the NCAA field with a singular identify would spur more participation. Even after the the NCAA and NIT pick their teams, there could possible be 16 Catholic teams for a tourney.
Anyway, just something that came to mind. I like postseason tournaments, even the smaller ones, and I think the idea of one with a specific focus like this has potential.
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Post by calihanmole on Mar 29, 2024 15:02:25 GMT -5
It’s an interesting idea. I’d watch. Maybe EWTN could broadcast the games.
While I like the idea, I haven’t seen a lot of evidence of Catholic colleges going very far out of their way to collaborate and do big things. When the new Big East formed there was a lot of talk about it being a “Catholic” conference by guys like us on message boards and Twitter. But then, of course, Butler was included and the ADs and everyone involved said their intention was never to start a “Catholic” athletic conference. I think what Catholic schools have more of in common now is they are private schools with a lot of history and NCAA experience. The dedication to Catholicism just isn’t a primary driver for many administrators anymore. I’m not saying they’re bad people, but we are an increasingly secular society and I think admins and decision makers at Catholic schools are thinking NCAA or bust most of the time. And who would organize and execute a Catholic post season tournament? I suppose some Catholic billionaire could do it, but these tournaments are and will be driven by corporate sponsors.
What I see in the future is a world where virtually every D1 basketball team goes to a post season tournament. I could see some tournaments being 16 teams, some being 8, and I could even envision small 4 team tournaments that keep the operating cost low. I think this could happen because players will expect the opportunity to keep playing, and because there might eventually be enough NIL money to pay all players who participate. Making any tournament strictly Catholic might make it too difficult to put on.
On the other hand, I wonder how the new transfer portal will influence post season tournaments. This year was bonkers in that some schools turned down invites to the NIT. Why? Because they lost players to the portal, anticipated losing players to the portal, and possibly because some coaches wanted to focus on recruiting out of the portal instead of going to the NIT. It’ll be interesting to see what post season tournaments look like in five years. Can’t rule out the NCAA taking away auto bids, or even the NCAA as we know it imploding.
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Post by Commissioner on May 6, 2024 12:19:31 GMT -5
At one time there was such a tournament--the National Catholic Invitation Tournament, which ran from 1949 through 1952.
The first tournament was played in Denver, with Regis (36-3) defeating St. Francis (NY) (20-13) in the final, 51-47. Other teams were Dayton (16-14), Gonzaga (17-12), Iona (17-8), Loras, Loyola (Md) (25-8), Mount St. Mary's (10-10), St. Ambrose, St. Benedict's (today Benedictine, Ks), St. Bonaventure (18-8), St. Edward's (19-4), St. Francis (Pa) (16-11), St. Norbert (13-7), St. Thomas, and Siena (22-7).
The 1950 tournament was scheduled to be played at Loyola (Md) in Baltimore, but was moved to Albany when St. Francis and other schools complained about Maryland's segregation rules. Only eight teams played, Siena (27-5) defeating St. Francis (NY)(6-18) in the final. The other participants were Creighton (13-13), Iona (21-4), Loras, Providence (14-9), St. Francis (Pa) (18-9), and St. Michael's (18-6).
1951 featured 12 teams, again in Albany. St. Francis (NY) (19-11) finally got over the hump and won it, beating Seattle (32-5) in the final. Others were Iona (18-8), Le Moyne, Loras, Mount St. Mary's (19-13), St. Francis (Pa) (19-4), St. Mary's (Mn), St. Michael's (19-4), St. Norbert (19-10), Siena (19-8), and Spring Hill.
The final tournament, played in Troy, NY in 1952, was won by Marquette (12=14), beating St. Francis (Pa) (23-7) in the final. Other teams were Gannon (12-13), Iona (16-10), Le Moyne, Loyola (Md) (16-12), Providence (14-9), St. Francis (NY) (20-8), St. Joseph's (20-7), St. Mary's (Mn), Scranton (15-14), and Siena (24-6).
The tournament was sponsored by the National Catholic Collegiate Athletic Association. I have no idea what happened to that organization, or why the tournament was dropped (probably NCAA tournament expansion played a major part). As you can see, in an era when college basketball was less clearly stratified, it attracted a mix of mostly minor but some major program (and remember, the two St. Francis schools were pretty big deals in college hoops in the 1950s), and included some teams with pretty poor records. I don't know if the Titans ever turned down an invited--one would have thought the 1950 and 1951 teams, in particular, would have been likely invitees, but the '49 and '52 Titans also had winning records and were a national program at the time.
I don't know if there are enough decent Catholic teams, outside the B10, SEC, ACC, Big East, and B12, to make it work anymore. If you were to have an 8-team tournament this year, for teams not invited to NCAA or NIT or P5, I think the only .500 or better Catholic teams were:
- St. Bonaventure (though they reportedly said they would not take an NIT bid, so...)
- Fairfield (24-13 after playing in CBI
- Niagara (16-16)
- Sacred Heart (16-16)
- St. Thomas (20-13)
- Seattle (23-14 after winning CBI)
- Santa Clara (20-13)
- San Diego (18-15)
You might add 18-13 Marist, but they are officially secular now.
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Post by nctitan on May 6, 2024 14:39:35 GMT -5
The Titans were members of the Missouri Valley Conference during those seasons, and that might have precluded them from the tournament.
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Post by Commissioner on May 6, 2024 19:31:21 GMT -5
The Varsity News reported in its March 3, 1950 edition, that the Titans were, in fact, definitely invited to the National Catholic Invitational Tournament. It also suggests that we may have been invited to the NIT. However, it refers to the "National Intercollegiate Invitational tournament." I've never been able to find anything on a "National Intercollegiate Invitational Tournament." Was this poor VN labeling of the NIT? (The National Association of Intercollegiate Basketball also had a tournament in 1950, but it was definitely for small schools--the NAIB eventually became the NAIA). Here's the rather enigimatic clip:  I say "enigmatic" because the headline indicates an NIT bid (if that's what it was) was given, as does the text "acceptance of either offer ... " But it also suggests maybe a bid was not final: "... the Titans are being considered to round out the 12-team National Intercollegiate Invitational tournament." And were the Titans actually invited, or just "considered"? Although the next four issues (Mar. 7, 10, 17 and 21) have various season wrap up articles on the Titans, none says anything more about these bids. |
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