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Post by Commissioner on Mar 29, 2013 12:28:29 GMT -5
On the old board, between rants about a former assistant coach, adultery, left-wing politics, gays, and the glories of porn, there was a lively discussion about trying to join the A10, MVC, or even new Big East.
What are or should be UD's ambitions? Remember that we are a poor university (not in quality, but in cash - and frankly, we've not had a lot of far-sighted leadership over the decades), in a declining city, with a relatively small enrollment. Since 1980 poor hires (Geracioti, McCarter), lack of foresight, finances, caution, and the plight of the city have left us watching as old rivals such as Marquette, Dayton, and Xavier have lapped us, to the point where they won't even schedule us. In 1980, it wouldn't have been at all obvious that today Catholic schools such as St. John's, Xavier, and (especially) Gonzaga would be in college ball's upper echelon, while Detroit, San Francisco, and Loyola would not.
The Titans were never a major power like, say, Indiana, but we were undoubtedly a major team. We were ranked nationally in the 1960, '61, '69, '72, '77, '78, and '79 seasons (and those are just AP rankings and some UPI rankings - I don't have all the UPI history, and there were times we were ranked there but not by AP. We also were ranked nationally, for example, by Sports Illustrated in the 1975 season. AP began ranking in 1949, and for most of the 1960s the polls only ranked 10 teams or we probably would have been ranked in '62 and '66). We had All-American players in 1939 (first team), '40 (second team), '52, '53, '55, '56, '57 (third team), '60 (third team), '61 (third team), '62 (third team), '66, '69 (1st team), '78 (2), and '79. When the Titans did NOT make the post-season, as in 1972 and 1974, it was often news on the sports pages. We routinely played home games with the likes of Indiana, Notre Dame, Michigan State, and Villanova. We hosted a major in-season tournament, the Motor City Classic.
Of course the world has changed, particularly in scheduling by high major teams, and in the commitment of large state schools to basketball.
So what is it we should now aspire to? If we are content to be a mid-major, the Horizon is probably a good spot. If we want to rejoin the ranks of national major college teams, I think we have to look to move up. (That raises a boatload of questions - move first, win later? Sam's nightmare of being Big East DePaul or A10 Duquesne; or dominate the Horizon, then move up - but will improvement be easier if we move up first; if the opportunities are now, can we afford to pass them up hoping they'll be there when we are "better positioned"?).
What's your realistic vision: similar to Weber State or Murray State, always among the best teams in smaller conferences, a fair number of NCAA bids as a result, but usually with a low seed and "1&done"? Is it stay in the Horizon, and seek to be what Butler was to the Horizon or what Gonzaga is to the WCC - hoping maybe you can move later, as Butler has but Gonzaga can't seem to do? Is that a better option than moving to the A10 or MVC?
Just some ramblings, interested in thoughts.
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Post by dodger on Mar 29, 2013 13:53:09 GMT -5
Here's what I want:
1. Fun home games, against good opponents. 2. A large and loud home crowd. Something like the UIC game this year, or the St. John's game last year happening all the time. 3. Meaningful games after the first weekend in March. 4. NCAA invitations even if we don't win our conference tourney.
It can be done with the right LEADERSHIP. When I was an undergrad, Butler was terrible, but they built a program over 20 years by getting a little better ever year. Since there are some obvious constraints, like not being loaded with cash, perhaps U-D should seek some partnerships. Maybe Mr. I would like another event in his new arena when the red wings are not playing. Perhaps that event could be Titan basketball, Imagine college hoops downtown, with the Titans playing against some major names. I'm not advocating leaving Calihan, but all options to improve our situation should be explored.
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Post by apmichael on Mar 29, 2013 15:33:35 GMT -5
I remember the 70"s, the Saturday afternoon games against Gerogetown, where you couldn't park within a mile of the Hall. Playing at home against North carolina and Iowa. That's what I'd like to see again. If it had to be done with school money it will never happen, but there are new rules these days, TV money, NCAA money, naming rights money, sponsor money. I think playing in the HL is safe, but not a commitment, not to the students, the alum's or the community, it's safe, it's D1 sort of. I would like the school to step up, A-10, Big East, MO Valley, if it has to take it's lums so be it. Use the DePaul model, they are the door mat of the league, but now they are in the new league with all the benefits, and sooner or later they it hit it and be better. Frankly I'd rather be them than us. I think the only Catholic "major" from the 60's and 70"s in the Midwest stuck in a rut like us is Loyola. There may not be opportunity like now ever again, we need to step up and make a commitment.
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Post by motorcitysam on Mar 29, 2013 15:43:05 GMT -5
I most of us want the same thing. Dodger listed just about all of it in his post.
I do wish we were able to attract more fans to our home games. I think the key to that is being able to interest fans in coming to see the Titans, and connecting with our team. I think we have to do a better job of marketing the team to the Metro Detroit community. I'm not sure how we do that. It's the only D1 basketball in the City, but we don't seem to be an option for many City residents when it comes to spending their sports dollars. We're a major Catholic school, but we don't seem to be an option for most of the area Catholics either.
I don't think it's just a matter of "if you win, they will come" because I didn't see a noticeable attendance bump during the NCAA years in the late 90s or during the past two years, either. I'm not sure what the answer is.
For now, absent a more viable realistic option, I'm okay staying in the HL and trying to strengthen the league and our program. Maybe more consistent winning seasons will improve our fan base, but we have to make a aggressive effort to market the team, using that Leadership that's being mentioned already. Maybe we get to the point where we are able to do what Xavier did and move up later.
I do think we should investigate any opportunities that come our way (or that we seek out) to improve the program, and that includes moving to a different conference. (Particularly if it's a Junior Catholic 7 conference like APMichael mentioned the other day.) But I won't stop being a fan if we're still in the HL the next few years.
And, yes, as the first point in this thread accurately pointed out, my nightmare is us being the DePaul of the Big East or the Duquense of the A-10. :-)
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Post by Commissioner on Mar 29, 2013 20:53:56 GMT -5
I've been surfing other Horizon boards during breaks in the Michigan/Kansas game: Loyola's got a thread about wanting to join the MVC or A10; Milwaukee hoping to take Creighton's place in the MVC; Valpo has a thread discussing an MVC move. The Horizon is a solid conference, but we shoulld be aware that we're not alone - probably all our brethren would leave if the opportunity arose.
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Post by Titan Jim on Mar 29, 2013 21:45:39 GMT -5
I surfed some of the MVC boards the other day. UD comes up as a possible addition to replace Creighton, but only as the second to fourth choice.
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Post by apmichael on Mar 30, 2013 7:08:07 GMT -5
Admin: maybe because these other schools see the same opportunities and have the same worries, I don't think this league can sit back and stay the same, it's either going to get better or get worst. If it brings in Oakland ot the II/IP schools it will become more than a less travel Summit. I think it's a concern that if Detroit sits pat the future will be made for us in some office in Indy.
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Post by Commissioner on Mar 30, 2013 7:12:32 GMT -5
On the one hand, I think the Horizon is wise not to act rashly, and to let the dust settle a bit. Yet it's also irritating that Butler announced its departure a year ago and what the Horizon is doing seems totally unsettled, beyond rumors of an expansion of 3. Butler and Xaver left the A10 2 weeks ago and they've already announced the addition of George Mason. Obviously they didn't go from 0 to 60 in that time, but still, you feel like they're getting something done.
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Post by theoriginaljimmyc on Mar 30, 2013 7:57:38 GMT -5
I think it's a concern that if Detroit sits pat the future will be made for us in some office in Indy. Nobody knows if we have any choice but to sit pat. As far as I know the Big East, A-10 or MVC haven't made us an offer. What if none of them do? What if they take Valpo, Loyola or Mikwaukee and we are left in the HL without them? Instead of worrying about where we can or should move to, I would rather try really really hard to improve the HL, and if we happen to get an offer to move we move. Lets give Belmont, Northern Kentucky, or even Dayton or St. Louis some real incentives to join like letting them host an HL tournament in b-ball and/or other sports, reduce the buy in or help pay their buy-outs, and other perks with penalties if they leave after a few years.
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Post by apmichael on Mar 30, 2013 9:36:39 GMT -5
Pro active by the HL is important, we're on the outside looking in so we don't know, again we don't know if the Big East, A-10, or MVC is interested in Detroit. But as a markietng man looking at Detroit as a market with 4 big active advertisers sitting in Detroit (Big 3 and Quicken), given the choice between U of D and Geroge Mason, to me there is no choice. If the A-10 with alot of their members in the Midwest and near South play their tournament in Brooklyn, you can't tell me a Midwest dominated Best East sponsored by say a Quicken wouldn't work in Detroit, just look how well the NCAA regionals do in the Palace and Ford field. But my point is if your looking for a job you knock on doors, I'm not sure the A-10, Big East or MVC is not some much interested in Detroit I wonder how interested Detroit is in them. Even our newspapers, why aren't they beating the drums.
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Post by theoriginaljimmyc on Mar 30, 2013 9:52:42 GMT -5
I guarantee the university is not just sitting on its hands waiting for a call. They are also in a much better position to know what is going on and how interested these conferences are in the Detroit market, and where we have the best chance to improve.
Someone mentioned that Dan Gilbert cannot give money to college athletics because he owns an NBA team? First, is that true? It would make sense. Second, how far does that restriction go? To Quicken Loans as well? We don't have baseball or hockey so Illitch and Karmanos shouldn't be excluded. Should we expect them to give just because we are located in the City? There are a lot of "good causes" they could donate to in the city, maybe better than college basketball. I trust We have professionals trying to get that money.
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Post by titanmac on Mar 30, 2013 10:15:31 GMT -5
Echo. Jchit. We are not sitting idly by. You guys who think we need some sort of invite are only right to thge extent that you understand that these 'invites" are solicited. The invites will be directly proportional to our committment.
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Post by apmichael on Mar 30, 2013 10:20:23 GMT -5
OJC (original jimmy c), I hope your right that they are not sitting on their hands. As for Gilbert, there are ways companies can support colleges, Flagstate and U of M, Nike and the Ducks, and guys like T Boone Pickins and OK State are examples. There's naming rights, and sponsorships, or donations and grants. I think the important thing with the new "young turks" in Detroit is they are using entertainment as a economic engine so to speak to grow the city, casinos, pro sports, theaters, etc. I think big time or bigger time college basketball is a good fit, and the U of D could use this "engine" throught sponsorship of the right interested people to join the basketball world changes and to upgrade the program. For example the new CEO of the Chrysler Division is a U of D graduate, that division is spending a ton on it's Made in Detroit ads, one would thing some type of sponsorship venue is there someplace.
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Post by kirky313 on Mar 30, 2013 11:17:45 GMT -5
i want to win and win now.. i want the most viable conference, i want 5,000+ every game, i want the big time match up's at home. i want the top players staying home to play for us... its really not too much to ask for.
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Post by apmichael on Mar 30, 2013 11:32:35 GMT -5
313, that's what we all want, that'st the goal, now what's the plan? I keep going back to the 70's, when some of the games were so sold out the biggest first worry was if you couldn't get a ticket, then a win.
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