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Post by Commissioner on Apr 2, 2013 8:32:53 GMT -5
wow. the pessismism that runs rampant on this board never ceases to amaze me. does anyone really think the mvc is going to take valpo or "two" chocago schools? thats just not going to happen. valpo does not create an inroad into the chicago media market. noone in chicago cares whats going on in indiana. there is even less liklihood that they will take all three. Some of it, Mac, reflects a lack of confidence in the leadership of the Horizon and a strong sense that UD is unwilling to commit more resources needed to move up. Dr Garibaldi still hasn't shown if he has more imagination and vision on the athletic front than some of his predecessors.
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Post by motorcitysam on Apr 2, 2013 8:33:02 GMT -5
LOL. Hadn't heard that line in a while. Like Mac says, I think we are being too pessimistic here. Even if the HL comes apart, which I doubt, we'll find a home. If it ends up as a merger with the Summit League, I won't like it, but I'll live with it. I'll still be a big fan, regardless of conference affiliation. And I don't know where the talk is coming from about us dropping to DII or DIII.
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Post by apmichael on Apr 2, 2013 8:47:29 GMT -5
Sam the schools spends $2M+ a year in basketball, if , (and it's a big if) the HL loses a bunch of teams, and/or it's becmes or combines with the Summit, I would think the school would evaluate the $2M to see if it could be used elsewhere. I'm just saying D11 or D111 is a footprint, bigger schools than us went that route, NYU comes to mind, they are a very rich school, with a rich basketball history, and just walked away from D1 basketball and all sports, so while it's a opion that we don't want to think about, it's out there.
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Post by titanmac on Apr 2, 2013 10:02:02 GMT -5
i usually appreciate your views ap but your way off with this assessment. there is no one in athletics or elsewhere on the campus talking of abdicating our athletic programs. as reflected in the numbers reported by commish the current spending level is actually increasing as is our commitment to the non revenue sports--to the extent we are outspending most horizon schools and a lot of a10 and mvc schools as has been p[reviously reported by commish. . Garibaldi has routinely and publicly as well as budgetwise come out in support of the athletics mission and i see no reason for that to change. your assessment could only come from a lack of familiarity with current campus events.
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Post by apmichael on Apr 2, 2013 11:01:15 GMT -5
MAC, it's just a review of a business model, not a basketball fans death wish, and it's only a option, I have no knowledge that anybody is thinking of that option, but it's out there. But there is another side, assuming Detroit stays in the HL , even if two or three teams leave. There are advantages, the HL is a "win one game in March and go to the dance" league, it is now and it looks like it will be in the future. If that works for the program that's fine, but you pay the price, so so teams playing in front of so so crowds. I guess the answer to that is to do what ww did this year, play Syacuse, Miami, Temple, Pitt, WSU, mostly likely not at home.
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Post by titanmac on Apr 2, 2013 11:45:27 GMT -5
to me there's only one option and its to look elsewhere and higher. anything else is stagnation.
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Post by apmichael on Apr 2, 2013 12:32:58 GMT -5
agreed to stand pat is bad policy
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Post by mooseguy1 on Apr 2, 2013 21:42:37 GMT -5
to me there's only one option and its to look elsewhere and higher. anything else is stagnation. Mac, I am with you on this. The idea of joining the Summit bugs me, but dropping out of D-1 is positively sickening...I mean I literally feel sick at the thought. I love the Titans as much as if I graduated from UD, and have visions of competing at the highest levels. If Witchita State and Butler and Gonzaga can, then, dammit, so can we. Come on, everyone, I know you believe you are being realistic about the state of the Horizon League and you might be. But it doesn't mean the death knell of our program. It could be an opportunity for us to move up in the NCAA pecking order. I'll support them no matter what but I'm going to do it with optimism. We have a good product; there is no need for us to apologize for anything or go begging for scraps. The Titans would be an asset in any league.
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Post by apmichael on Apr 3, 2013 6:17:37 GMT -5
Moose, ageed we have a good product, and everything is going well, and 10 or 15 years ago the only issue would be to find the next Ray Jr, or Nick. But as we speak, the college basketball world is changing. Even 5 years ago when the HL was really Butler Inc, if somebody would have told you that Butler would be in their third league in three years, you'd think they were crazy, or that Rutgers would be in the BIg 10, even more out landish. All I'm saying we have a school with perceived money problems,( I'm in not position to know the money problems) who is in a comfortable place sports wise, whose comfortable place is changing, and they are presented with many options. The safest or easiest option is to stand pat, the most excitibg option is Big East , A-10, (which may not be a option) or the most unspeakable option for this board is to downsize. The worry is we have heard nothing from the school, except maybe from the coach that the school is happy in the HL, standard boillerplate. Te truth is the school has a problem when it comes to it's sports program, some of it not of their making, certainly being without a AD for almost 7 months is not good., the schools ability to to bring in funds to grow the program is not good, the communities support of the program is not good. Last week we've seen coaches who were set in stone change jobs, what would we do if Ray Sr left today for Ball State or NM, or MN where would we be, right now he is the only stbilizing factor. The real question is if Detroit dropped to 11 or 111 today, how big a story would it be, maybe a piece on TV or the newspaper of what was, thats it. I have no information about anything, but stuff happens happens, I'm a old guy, and when growing up though you buy a few shares of stock here and there in good companies and it was a good thing, well I have a few shares in a good company GM, but it's old GM go figure. in the whole program. I for one would like to hear a story like out of Valpo or Loyola about that they are talking to so and so, I'd feel better.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 13, 2013 22:50:21 GMT -5
So the MVC has taken Loyola. www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-loyola-missouri-valley-conference-20130413,0,2427164.story So why Loyola? The answer is simple - the MVC really wanted the Chicago market. Loyola fits the geographic footprint as well, forming an eastern front to the conference in a line stretching from from Evansville to SIU in Carbondale to Bradley in Peoria and up to Lake Michigan. UD's program is in better shape than Loyola's, but the Detroit market isn't as desirable and is another 300 miles east. That's the difference. And we're probably too far West for the A10 once Dayton and St. Louis leave next year, as is probable, for the Big East. Thinking this is merely a lateral move for Loyola (or would have been for UD) is wrong. Hardly anyone seriously thinks that. The MVC has always outranked the Horizon in RPI, SOS, etc. It's got a Final 4 team. It has higher attendance averages, better facilities, bigger budgets, and more history. I venture to say that no recruit, none, will want to play in the Horizon over the MVC (for many it won't matter, but where it does, we will always be the loser). The Horizon's presence in Chicago has just declined. Yesterday, the conference rank in Chicago press was Big 10, Big East, Horizon. Today it is Big 10, Big East, MVC, Horizon. There is no way to sugar coat this - UD has been left behind once again, into a conference that will decline further. LeCrone has to go. He did nothing to strengthen the Horizon when he could offer schools such as Evansville a birth alongside Final 4 squad Butler. After Butler's departure, nothing was done to strengthen the league in the last year. The A10 and the MVC lost flagship schools a year after Butler left the Horizon, and they have already replaced them. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see things get grimmer for UD. YSU probably does want that football conference, and while their departure won't directly hurt the league - they're the league's weakest basketball program - it will add to instability, and there's no guarantee a replacement even that good can be found. With the Horizon in danger of losing its auto bid in baseball, Wright State could split, likely for the OVC, costing the league its best home attendance program. There are still rumors of Valpo and UIC going to the MVC. For 30 years we've been able to dream that some day the Titans would reclaim a place among college basketball's major powers. That dream seems further away today than ever. A future along the lines of Holy Cross, St. Francis, and Canisius seems more likely than a future on a par with our old rivals including Butler, Xavier, Marquette, Dayton, and now even Loyola. Just really bad news.
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Post by hoopster on Apr 14, 2013 16:13:36 GMT -5
WOW, this sucks.
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Post by titanmac on Apr 18, 2013 8:22:53 GMT -5
you underestimate us again commish. your pessism is really very misplaced. i am of the view that it has overcome your analytics. actually for loyola to move up shreds the theory often promulgated here, that a. you have to win your way in; b. that attendance figures matter; c. That it will require a HUGE upgrade financially that we cannot afford; and, finally, d. that you have to sit and wait by the side of the dance floor in the hopes that someone will invite you out there.
The shake ups are not over yet and there will be plenty of opportunities including the mvc should we be so inclined.
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Post by motorcitysam on Apr 18, 2013 11:13:35 GMT -5
I think Loyola is an aberration because of their location in the Chicago market. That's a big plus for a conference looking to reload, and it overshadows their issues with attendance and recent on the court struggles. The vast majority of schools that have "upgraded" their conferences recently have been programs with sustained on the court success, a good place in their market, and good to great attendance. That goes for schools like Butler and Creighton, but also for schools like Davidson and George Mason.
Also, Loyola has a lot more money than we do. It's easier for them to take hits for conference exit fees, entry fees, increased travel costs, etc. We can't even scrape together enough money to get on the radio or buy a new scoreboard.
You have to bring something to the table and so far it looks like U of D isn't bringing enough. Our market is big, but ignores us. We've had some success recently, but it's very recent and not sustained. We're a Catholic school, but as the new Big East shows, that is more important to some U of D fans than it is to a lot of conference decision makers.
We don't really have anything going for us now that makes us a "gotta get" for conferences looking to expand. We don't have any really big positive attributes that overshadow our negatives right now. It doesn't have to always be that way, but it appears to be that way now.
I don't think I am being overly pessimistic. I am trying to look at it logically and take into account the recent moves in the college landscape.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 18, 2013 11:21:20 GMT -5
you underestimate us again commish. your pessism is really very misplaced. i am of the view that it has overcome your analytics. actually for loyola to move up shreds the theory often promulgated here, that a. you have to win your way in; b. that attendance figures matter; c. That it will require a HUGE upgrade financially that we cannot afford; and, finally, d. that you have to sit and wait by the side of the dance floor in the hopes that someone will invite you out there. The shake ups are not over yet and there will be plenty of opportunities including the mvc should we be so inclined. My pessimism, Mac, is not based on what could be but what likely will be because there seems to be relatively little ambition in high places. The Titans seem happy in the Horizon, and the Horizon seems happy on its present course.
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Post by rbj on Jan 26, 2022 23:10:08 GMT -5
With the word that Loyola, UIC, and Valpo are being visited by the MVC for potential membership, the Titans are on the brink of being royally screwed. Valpo has won two state regular season titles. Can the league afford to lose it's last several regular season champs (with Butler leaving last year)? What if all three go, to bring the MVC to 12? Then a) they probably won't expand further (meaning no UD); and more importantly b) The Horizon will be down to six teams - with some rumors that YSU wants out to join a FBS football league. It will lose its auto bid, its Chicago connection, and its most recent NCAA entry. It's interesting that the MVC wants its new members in place by July 1. We sit here 12 months after Butler left and the Horizon has announced nothing. The A10 added GMU within weeks of Xavier and Butler departing. Maybe we'll join the Summit; or the WAC. I feel like I've been punched in the stomach. All three teams mentioned in this post nearly nine years ago are currently in the MVC, although Loyola will soon depart.
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