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Post by motorcitysam on Feb 6, 2021 18:52:22 GMT -5
Way to put the hammer down in the second half. 83-56 Titans at the horn.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Feb 6, 2021 19:37:21 GMT -5
The team played well in the second half. I'm not sure who our scorekeeper is but he is awful generous to AD. AD shows 4 TO's and it felt a lot more like 8-10. He is really sloppy with the ball and needs to tighten things up a lot. I like the offence when Fraser initiates it. This was a good win today. Congrats Titans.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Feb 7, 2021 11:36:27 GMT -5
The team played well in the second half. I'm not sure who our scorekeeper is but he is awful generous to AD. AD shows 4 TO's and it felt a lot more like 8-10. He is really sloppy with the ball and needs to tighten things up a lot. I like the offence when Fraser initiates it. This was a good win today. Congrats Titans. I double checked today and I exaggerated! AD had 7 TO's and our score keeper is leaning his way strongly or doesn't understand the definition of a turnover.
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Post by rbj on Feb 7, 2021 12:22:15 GMT -5
The team played well in the second half. I'm not sure who our scorekeeper is but he is awful generous to AD. AD shows 4 TO's and it felt a lot more like 8-10. He is really sloppy with the ball and needs to tighten things up a lot. I like the offence when Fraser initiates it. This was a good win today. Congrats Titans. You can count on AD getting his pocket picked at least once a game.
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Post by Commissioner on Feb 7, 2021 13:15:32 GMT -5
The team played well in the second half. I'm not sure who our scorekeeper is but he is awful generous to AD. AD shows 4 TO's and it felt a lot more like 8-10. He is really sloppy with the ball and needs to tighten things up a lot. I like the offence when Fraser initiates it. This was a good win today. Congrats Titans. I double checked today and I exaggerated! AD had 7 TO's and our score keeper is leaning his way strongly or doesn't understand the definition of a turnover. I doubt the latter very, very much. Turnovers stand out in the mind much more than they merit. We remember turnovers. They stand out. They are not the usual result. We get angry, react emotionally to them. So they make a big impression. (All reasons I like stats above the eye test for most situations). Seven is a LOT of turnovers. You will rarely see a stat line with more than that, even from the most turnover prone players. Yesterday, for example, Loudon Love was charged with 7 turnovers. No one else in the league got more than 5. On Friday, Naz Bohannon had 6, and one other league player had five. In other words, in 24 team games, only 1 player reached 7 turnovers, none hit 8 or more. For the whole weekend, only 6 players had a game with 5 or more turnovers. In the Big 10, there were 4 games over the weekend--only 1 player out of the 8 teams hit 7 turnovers, no one hit more, only one other player had 5. There were 4 games over the weekend in the MAC, and no player had more than 5 turnovers. In other words, in the Horizon, MAC, and B10 this weekend there were 40 team games, in which 2 players, or one in every 20 team games, got 7 turnovers. No one got more than 7, and only one player had 6. Your definition of a "turnover" might differ from that of the the official scorers, but that would imply that you don't know the definition of a turnover--at least the official definition used in the stats--not that the all the scorekeepers don't. We could substitute your standard for theirs, but there's still no reason to think that AD alone has more turnovers than are showing up in the official stat lines, which would suggest that AD's turnovers--which are on the high side--aren't any higher, compared to anyone else, than what shows up in the stat box. FWIW, here are some excerpts from the statisticians manual: If a single player is judged to be primarily responsible for the turnover, that player is charged with the turnover. If no single player can be judged to be primarily responsible, or if the responsibility rests with anyone not a player, then the team is charged with the turnover. ... PHILOSOPHY: The purpose of a turnover is to reflect statistically the times in which a team was given the ball and should have gotten some kind of shot but, before it could get any kind of shot, made some type of mistake that turned the ball over to the opponent.
... There will be some errors that will not result in the charging of a turnover because they did not involve the turning of the ball over to the opponent. [AD had two or three of these yesterday, where he or another Titan came up with the ball--maybe that's the source of your higher count?]. And here are a couple examples where no turnover is charged, though we fans might informally consider it a turnover: Adams has control of the ball and is tied up by Brown. (a) Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in ... RULING: In (a), there is no turnover....
Adams is in control of the ball when it is batted away by Brown. While it is loose on the floor, Allen commits a foul and the ball is awarded to Team B. RULING: The statistician must decide to whom to charge the turnover. If the reason for the foul by Allen was that he or she was trying to recover the loose ball, then the turnover probably should be charged to Adams for creating the situation. But if the foul was not related to the losing of control by Adams, then charge the turnover to Allen.Again, my point is just that there's no reason to think AD is specifically benefitting from calls. If he is, then probably Fraser and Johnson and Kuol and everyone else is, and not just Titan players, bit all around college ball. Which means that AD's turnover line should not be considered as somehow favoring AD vis other players. If AD really has more turnovers, using the UP standard, than almost certainly so do Jalen Moore, Jerrod Godfrey, Te'Jon Lucas, etc.
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Post by motorcitysam on Feb 7, 2021 13:40:14 GMT -5
Turnovers have a great impact on those watching the game, much like dropped passes in football. A few years ago I talked to a guy who swore that one of the Lions players dropped 3-4 passes per game. At the end of the season, the total dropped passes for that player was nine, and even that included a couple of borderline ones. I've watched games in person where I thought a Titan had five or six turnovers and when I watched the replay at home later it was two or three.
Some things just stand out more. It's like the opposite of a guy getting a "quiet" 15 points.
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Post by udballer on Feb 8, 2021 8:46:55 GMT -5
So are we saying that AD had a "loud" four turnovers? π
Turnovers, by official definition, are not the be-all, end-all of how a player took care of the basketball. Alot of that needs to rely on the eye test. Player A may lose the handle on the basketball resulting in a tie-up by the defense 6 times in a game. Whether or not that gets reported as a turnover might rely solely on the possession arrow. He may have 6 TO's, may have zero. In either case, it was equally detrimental to the team.
I cannot comment on AD because I'm not watching, just listening to the games on the radio. As a result of the radio influence, to my knowledge AD hasn't made a poor play yet this season. π
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Post by titantarheel on Feb 8, 2021 9:52:02 GMT -5
So much of AD's game is catch and shoot, or take a few dribbles to create space and then shoot. He nearly ever turns it over in these situations, which makes sense.
A weakness in his game is indeed in turning the ball over when he's not in the simple catch & shoot or create & shoot situations -- this is when he's getting trapped while dribbling or doing some different things. Invariably the turnovers appear 'unforced' and I think what commenters above are suggesting they are more impactful as you notice them for being kind of unnecessary and avoidable.
In his 3 years here he's actually quite consistent, these are the per-game averages for entire seasons:
2018/19: Assist 3.6, Turnover 3.3 2019/20: Assist 4.5, Turnover 4.5 2020/21: Assist 4.3, Turnover 3.4
This kind of confirms that AD is a bit of a wash when it comes to creating for other players. Yes, he may dribble drive and kick it out to an open man every now and then but he's seemingly just as likely to turn the ball over doing that. That's just not his game right now. The numbers support what I would say is the 'eye test' here in how I think of AD's game. None of this is meant to specifically knock him, just observations on his strengths vs where he is not as proficient.
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Post by Commissioner on Feb 8, 2021 12:21:26 GMT -5
I agree with these last two posts by UDBaller and Tarheel. Note that UP's post that started this twist in the thread was his claim that the scorekeepers were simply not properly tallying AD's turnovers. I don't think so. But that stat doesn't capture every aspect of his ball handling. That's why nerds, analysts, and good coaches are constantly trying to develop more statistical measures, such as Turnovers per 100 plays, usage rates, offensive and defensive win shares, etc.
Second, as I pointed out, there are circumstances where you don't get charged for the turnover, one specifically being, as Baller also said, when you get tied up but your team has the possession arrow. But over time those kind of errors will show up in the stat lines. You might have one game where you get tied up twice or maybe three times (I don't think I have ever in my life seen a player tied up six times in one game, at any level) and the arrow saves you a turnover, but over time that will even out and you're going to show more turnovers than someone not getting tied up. You can lie with statistics, but statistics don't lie. They just are, and you know how to use them properly to help analyze a situation, or you don't. They're not a be-all/end-all, they're a tool.
Tarheel is right. It's obvious--whether you want to rely on imperfect memory or imperfect stats--that AD needs to cut down his turnovers, that he too often loses control of the ball when trying to drive the lane, and has a frustrating habit of attempting to drive the baseline right into a trap of big men. But AD works very hard at his game. He is a much more complete player than he was two years ago, and would probably be the first to agree that he needs to work on reducing his turnovers.
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Post by fan on Feb 8, 2021 14:41:16 GMT -5
"to my knowledge AD hasn't made a poor play yet this season", he's has had plenty of turn overs and bad shots, but he is getting better every game
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Post by upbasketballfan on Feb 8, 2021 16:33:57 GMT -5
I agree with these last two posts by UDBaller and Tarheel. Note that UP's post that started this twist in the thread was his claim that the scorekeepers were simply not properly tallying AD's turnovers. I don't think so. But that stat doesn't capture every aspect of his ball handling. That's why nerds, analysts, and good coaches are constantly trying to develop more statistical measures, such as Turnovers per 100 plays, usage rates, offensive and defensive win shares, etc. Second, as I pointed out, there are circumstances where you don't get charged for the turnover, one specifically being, as Baller also said, when you get tied up but your team has the possession arrow. But over time those kind of errors will show up in the stat lines. You might have one game where you get tied up twice or maybe three times (I don't think I have ever in my life seen a player tied up six times in one game, at any level) and the arrow saves you a turnover, but over time that will even out and you're going to show more turnovers than someone not getting tied up. You can lie with statistics, but statistics don't lie. They just are, and you know how to use them properly to help analyze a situation, or you don't. They're not a be-all/end-all, they're a tool. Tarheel is right. It's obvious--whether you want to rely on imperfect memory or imperfect stats--that AD needs to cut down his turnovers, that he too often loses control of the ball when trying to drive the lane, and has a frustrating habit of attempting to drive the baseline right into a trap of big men. But AD works very hard at his game. He is a much more complete player than he was two years ago, and would probably be the first to agree that he needs to work on reducing his turnovers. If you rewatch the game a couple of times you will see AD had 7 TO's and was saved 3 times by teammates making spectacular plays to help the team retain possession. One in particular was Fraser throwing the ball back over his head from out of bounds. A turnover is when you cause your team to loose possession of the ball by an errant play other than a shot. The stat does not include starting to quickly before your teammate has an opportunity to set a pick. This actually should also be a to. Do not get me wrong here guys I like AD's game but I would like to see Faser initiating more. The more I watch Fraser the more I like his game.
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Post by rbj on Feb 8, 2021 17:10:59 GMT -5
"to my knowledge AD hasn't made a poor play yet this season", he's has had plenty of turn overs and bad shots, but he is getting better every game His shot selection is improving, but at least once or twice a game he will jack up an off balanced, one legged three pointer with 27 seconds on the shot clock. In the previous two seasons he was doing this four to five times a game.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Feb 8, 2021 18:52:33 GMT -5
"to my knowledge AD hasn't made a poor play yet this season", he's has had plenty of turn overs and bad shots, but he is getting better every game You are 100% right. AD is an exceptional player and I am very happy he is a Titan. I hope he becomes an excellent supportive alumni.
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Post by udballer on Feb 8, 2021 23:00:24 GMT -5
"to my knowledge AD hasn't made a poor play yet this season", he's has had plenty of turn overs and bad shots, but he is getting better every game His shot selection is improving, but at least once or twice a game he will jack up an off balanced, one legged three pointer with 27 seconds on the shot clock. In the previous two seasons he was doing this four to five times a game. Not according to the guys on the radio. π
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Post by upbasketballfan on Feb 9, 2021 0:43:27 GMT -5
While I am complaining about the inaccuracies of our Scorekeeper, Waterman shows 1 blocked shot in the box score and he blocked 3 shots. In the discussion above i wonder who was credited with a TO when AD threw a hard pass to Johnson in the corner and with Johnson fully extended and 20 + inches in the air the ball went just beyond his reach or an AD pass to Johnson above the key which was deflected by a FW player and Johnson dove for the ball and barely touched the ball with his finger tips as it went out of bounds. I an presuming Johnson received the TO's by our keeper or they were scored as team turnovers because two players were involved but in neither instance could Johnson receive the passes and Johnson is an exceptional athlete. AD had a very good game but he did have 7TO's not 4.
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