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Post by Rogobob77 on Apr 2, 2022 10:07:17 GMT -5
Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but this was not a decision made in or by someone in the HR department of the University. If you think it was a good decision to let Collins go, credit the AD 100%. If you think it was misguided, that is completely on the AD. HR has a consultive role to play perhaps, but the decision on who to hire/fire for coaching positions is the full and complete responsibility of Vowels.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Apr 2, 2022 12:06:33 GMT -5
Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but this was not a decision made in or by someone in the HR department of the University. If you think it was a good decision to let Gilbert go, credit the AD 100%. If you think it was misguided, that is completely on the AD. HR has a consultive role to play perhaps, but the decision on who to hire/fire for coaching positions is the full and complete responsibility of Vowels. Vowels does not have the sole and complete responsibility here. When Vowels started to make so many hiring errors Garibaldi added himself to being consulted on Vowels decisions. Whether some on here want to keep ignoring the truth about the true cause of the Athletic Departments demise, they eventually will have to accept that the entire problem rests on Garibaldis shoulders. What Chuck said earlier about learning in business that you do not let someone go unless you know you have a better replacement is true but that is for people who understand how a business works and have themselves invested in that business not for those who have nothing invested and think they know how to run a business based on what someone else taught them who also is not and never has been a business person.
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Post by Rogobob77 on Apr 2, 2022 14:27:37 GMT -5
Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but this was not a decision made in or by someone in the HR department of the University. If you think it was a good decision to let Gilbert go, credit the AD 100%. If you think it was misguided, that is completely on the AD. HR has a consultive role to play perhaps, but the decision on who to hire/fire for coaching positions is the full and complete responsibility of Vowels. Vowels does not have the sole and complete responsibility here. When Vowels started to make so many hiring errors Garibaldi added himself to being consulted on Vowels decisions. Whether some on here want to keep ignoring the truth about the true cause of the Athletic Departments demise, they eventually will have to accept that the entire problem rests on Garibaldis shoulders. What Chuck said earlier about learning in business that you do not let someone go unless you know you have a better replacement is true but that is for people who understand how a business works and have themselves invested in that business not for those who have nothing invested and think they know how to run a business based on what someone else taught them who also is not and never has been a business person. Perhaps Vowels and Garabaldi made a collaborative decision on Collins’ fate, but it certainly wasn’t the call of uniformed “so called HR specialists” as you implied earlier in this thread. The decision was certainly made at the top.
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Post by ptctitan on Apr 2, 2022 15:20:51 GMT -5
My point was not that HR usually makes the decision to keep or fire a coach. It is that the AD's decision to hire or fire a coach must still go through HR before it can be implemented and announced because the coach is a university employee.
Recall that Louisville suspended Chris Mack for 6 games for firing an assistant without going through that university's HR process.
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Post by Rogobob77 on Apr 2, 2022 15:33:31 GMT -5
My point was not that HR usually makes the decision to keep or fire a coach. It is that the AD's decision to hire or fire a coach must still go through HR before it can be implemented and announced because the coach is a university employee. Recall that Louisville suspended Chris Mack for 6 games for firing an assistant without going through that university's HR process. Not 100% sure as an outsider, but Collins was reportedly on an interim status time-limited appointment. Generally those type appointments expire on a set date unless extended or renewed, not really a situation where HR would need to have much involvement or would gum up the works. Perhaps the contract expired on 3/31/22, and the University wanted to wait until after that date passed before publicly announcing that they would be moving on to hire a new coach. As long as the University was prepared to pay Collins through the remainder of her contract, I don’t see legal issues with announcing at an earlier date (e.g., a couple days after the season ended) the decision that she would not be retained. This would have allowed quicker action on hiring a replacement.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Apr 2, 2022 17:01:24 GMT -5
My point was not that HR usually makes the decision to keep or fire a coach. It is that the AD's decision to hire or fire a coach must still go through HR before it can be implemented and announced because the coach is a university employee. Recall that Louisville suspended Chris Mack for 6 games for firing an assistant without going through that university's HR process. Not 100% sure as an outsider, but Collins was reportedly on an interim status time-limited appointment. Generally those type appointments expire on a set date unless extended or renewed, not really a situation where HR would need to have much involvement or would gum up the works. Perhaps the contract expired on 3/31/22, and the University wanted to wait until after that date passed before publicly announcing that they would be moving on to hire a new coach. As long as the University was prepared to pay Collins through the remainder of her contract, I don’t see legal issues with announcing at an earlier date (e.g., a couple days after the season ended) the decision that she would not be retained. This would have allowed quicker action on hiring a replacement. I would have been a little better with the Collins decision had it been made as the season ended. I think she was led to believe that they were discussing it in good faith. I think they led her on had her offer some recruits waited till most other coaching staffs were filled, didn’t give her staff much of a chance to land elsewhere and then sprung the decision as late as possible. This coach and her staff deserved better treatment than this. I would like to see the same thing happen to Vowels and when Garibaldi shows up in 2024 tell him we changed our mind but wait until the day before classes start. What goes around comes around and it should hold true for our version of Laurel and Hardy.
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Post by ptctitan on Apr 3, 2022 5:56:00 GMT -5
Not 100% sure as an outsider, but Collins was reportedly on an interim status time-limited appointment. Generally those type appointments expire on a set date unless extended or renewed, not really a situation where HR would need to have much involvement or would gum up the works. Perhaps the contract expired on 3/31/22, and the University wanted to wait until after that date passed before publicly announcing that they would be moving on to hire a new coach. As long as the University was prepared to pay Collins through the remainder of her contract, I don’t see legal issues with announcing at an earlier date (e.g., a couple days after the season ended) the decision that she would not be retained. This would have allowed quicker action on hiring a replacement. I would have been a little better with the Collins decision had it been made as the season ended. I think she was led to believe that they were discussing it in good faith. I think they led her on had her offer some recruits waited till most other coaching staffs were filled, didn’t give her staff much of a chance to land elsewhere and then sprung the decision as late as possible. This coach and her staff deserved better treatment than this. I would like to see the same thing happen to Vowels and when Garibaldi shows up in 2024 tell him we changed our mind but wait until the day before classes start. What goes around comes around and it should hold true for our version of Laurel and Hardy. We do not know all the details on why Collins was not promoted beyond interim status and why she would not be considered for the full-time job. And we do not know why this announcement was not made publicly until March 31st. There could be reasons for the timing that are out of Vowels' control. That's my only point. Not that anyone's opinion about the fairness of it all is right or wrong. As I noted above, we should have a more competitive women's team about which an argument in favor of retaining a coach who went 1-29 would be deemed ludicrous. The decisions to hire Scott and Gilbert are on the AD even if he was not the only person involved in those processes. They are the decisions that have injured the women's BB team.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 3, 2022 8:59:52 GMT -5
I don't much follow the women's teams, but I have to say, it seems to a me a bit strange to see all this chatter about the non-retention of a coach who just went 1-21, no matter how difficult the job she was given. This seems especially so given all the other problems of the university's athletic program and vague rumors of our men's coach leaving.
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Post by bigchuck on Apr 3, 2022 10:03:01 GMT -5
I don't much follow the women's teams, but I have to say, it seems to a me a bit strange to see all this chatter about the non-retention of a coach who just went 1-21, no matter how difficult the job she was given. This seems especially so given all the other problems of the university's athletic program and vague rumors of our men's coach leaving. Agree that it sounds strange on the surface. But the whole WBB story is strange. Maybe this will add from context. The Coach was named INTERIM coach June 15th with no staff, no players and no recruits. She assembled a staff with no guarantee of a job for them as they were working with an interim coach. She recruited a team as the interim despite no recruiting budget to speak of, or the ability to offer upperclassmen off campus housing allowance or even a single dorm room. Shiple hall was a spartan level dorm in 1965 when I lived there (and could not wait to get off campus). Definitely not a draw for UDM student athletes. Some of the recruits did not arrive on campus until days before class. Despite that the team played hard and was competitive in most games due to a furious man defense that almost overcame the shortage of ball handlers or shooters. In the first game of After Christmas we lost our leading scorer who was also our best defensive player for the year. She went down very late in the game with the lead. We lost by 5. Including that loss, we were 0-13 in games played. This included two overtime loses, 11 loses by 10 points or less, and one blowout to IUPUI, which was the class of the league and a 12 seed (when was the last time MBB was seeded that high?) in the NCAA. and a late blowout at Layola in the first road game they played. The team became more erratic after Sydney's injury. For a stretch we had three rotation players in street clothes, and the losses did start to wear on their confidence. But they continued to play hard and did manage a victory. Less than two weeks after Sydney's injury we lost to Oakland at Oakland by 30. I thought for sure the team was done and they were packing it in. Two days later that lost to Oakland at home by 4. I have no idea how she could get a team to recover from that that bad of defeat that quickly. We led after three quarters had a chance to win up until the last seconds. That is when I was convinced that she absolutely deserved another year and should have the interim removed to allow her a decent chance to recruit for next year. Obviously, the University did not agree.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 3, 2022 10:21:12 GMT -5
I don't much follow the women's teams, but I have to say, it seems to a me a bit strange to see all this chatter about the non-retention of a coach who just went 1-21, no matter how difficult the job she was given. This seems especially so given all the other problems of the university's athletic program and vague rumors of our men's coach leaving. Agree that it sounds strange on the surface. But the whole WBB story is strange. Maybe this will add from context. The Coach was named INTERIM coach June 15th with no staff, no players and no recruits. She assembled a staff with no guarantee of a job for them as they were working with an interim coach. She recruited a team as the interim despite no recruiting budget to speak of, or the ability to offer upperclassmen off campus housing allowance or even a single dorm room. Shiple hall was a spartan level dorm in 1965 when I lived there (and could not wait to get off campus). Definitely not a draw for UDM student athletes. Some of the recruits did not arrive on campus until days before class. Despite that the team played hard and was competitive in most games due to a furious man defense that almost overcame the shortage of ball handlers or shooters. In the first game of After Christmas we lost our leading scorer who was also our best defensive player for the year. She went down very late in the game with the lead. We lost by 5. Including that loss, we were 0-13 in games played. This included two overtime loses, 11 loses by 10 points or less, and one blowout to IUPUI, which was the class of the league and a 12 seed (when was the last time MBB was seeded that high?) in the NCAA. and a late blowout at Layola in the first road game they played. The team became more erratic after Sydney's injury. For a stretch we had three rotation players in street clothes, and the losses did start to wear on their confidence. But they continued to play hard and did manage a victory. Less than two weeks after Sydney's injury we lost to Oakland at Oakland by 30. I thought for sure the team was done and they were packing it in. Two days later that lost to Oakland at home by 4. I have no idea how she could get a team to recover from that that bad of defeat that quickly. We led after three quarters had a chance to win up until the last seconds. That is when I was convinced that she absolutely deserved another year and should have the interim removed to allow her a decent chance to recruit for next year. Obviously, the University did not agree. I repeat: it seems to a me a bit strange to see all this chatter about the non-retention of a coach who just went 1-21, no matter how difficult the job she was given.
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Post by joseph75 on Apr 3, 2022 11:33:31 GMT -5
I think Chuck makes salient points on the whole mess in UDM athletics and WBB in partticular. Recall when Vowels chose to continue to retain Gilbert after the "investigation", he dismissed the entire WBB roster from coming back. Only willing to allow then to attend school, but not play. Judging Collins on her record is unfair given the hand she was dealtby Vowels.
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Post by bigchuck on Apr 3, 2022 12:29:56 GMT -5
I repeat: it seems to a me a bit strange to see all this chatter about the non-retention of a coach who just went 1-21, no matter how difficult the job she was given. Discussion, at least in my mind, is about how a program in disarray for years has now managed to waste one more year when they had a logical path to move forward. Now we are back to no coach, no recruits, who knows how many coming back. It did not have to be this way. I have a lot of opinions about the treatment she received, but the main point in this discussion is the WBB program and the state of Women's sports in general is deplorable. I hope the one local star from West Bloomfield stays committed, but our reputation in the Detroit women's basketball circles could not be lower. The discussion of the decision is a microcosm of the larger problem.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Apr 3, 2022 13:43:02 GMT -5
Agree that it sounds strange on the surface. But the whole WBB story is strange. Maybe this will add from context. The Coach was named INTERIM coach June 15th with no staff, no players and no recruits. She assembled a staff with no guarantee of a job for them as they were working with an interim coach. She recruited a team as the interim despite no recruiting budget to speak of, or the ability to offer upperclassmen off campus housing allowance or even a single dorm room. Shiple hall was a spartan level dorm in 1965 when I lived there (and could not wait to get off campus). Definitely not a draw for UDM student athletes. Some of the recruits did not arrive on campus until days before class. Despite that the team played hard and was competitive in most games due to a furious man defense that almost overcame the shortage of ball handlers or shooters. In the first game of After Christmas we lost our leading scorer who was also our best defensive player for the year. She went down very late in the game with the lead. We lost by 5. Including that loss, we were 0-13 in games played. This included two overtime loses, 11 loses by 10 points or less, and one blowout to IUPUI, which was the class of the league and a 12 seed (when was the last time MBB was seeded that high?) in the NCAA. and a late blowout at Layola in the first road game they played. The team became more erratic after Sydney's injury. For a stretch we had three rotation players in street clothes, and the losses did start to wear on their confidence. But they continued to play hard and did manage a victory. Less than two weeks after Sydney's injury we lost to Oakland at Oakland by 30. I thought for sure the team was done and they were packing it in. Two days later that lost to Oakland at home by 4. I have no idea how she could get a team to recover from that that bad of defeat that quickly. We led after three quarters had a chance to win up until the last seconds. That is when I was convinced that she absolutely deserved another year and should have the interim removed to allow her a decent chance to recruit for next year. Obviously, the University did not agree. I repeat: it seems to a me a bit strange to see all this chatter about the non-retention of a coach who just went 1-21, no matter how difficult the job she was given. Commish it’s not just this it’s the constant fumbling of everything in the Athletic program and I mean everything. Nothing has managed to elude being damaged by our two Superhero’s. Their very poor timing and disregard for our programs shows that they do not care. Then for them to come forward with a statement that they can not see how this affects recruiting is ether lying or stupid. So this is the fuss over a 1 - 26 Coach being let go. This was mishandled and she was used. She didn’t have a chance, the program didn’t have a chance.
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Post by motorcitysam on Apr 3, 2022 17:10:26 GMT -5
I'm in the same camp as Big Chuck and UP when it comes to this topic. In ordinary circumstances, the firing of a 1-26 coach wouldn't be controversial. It would likely be welcomed. Given the past several years of Titan athletics, these are not ordinary circumstances. we all know the situation Coach Collins took over, including the time of year that she took the job. When I saw the team play in person this season, I was impressed with their execution and discipline. It wasn't a talented team, but I didn't think Collins would find many really good players available last summer who were willing to come play for an interim coach at one of the objectively worst programs in women's college basketball. Collins didn't make anyone forget Pat Summit, but I certainly thought she did enough to warrant a two or three year deal at a reasonable first year D1 coach salary. Especially considering who might be out there who would want to take over this mess. Dawn Staley ain't walking through the door. Good luck finding someone with better qualifications than Coach Collins who is willing to leave wherever they are already working to take over this program.
And if they weren't going to retain Collins, University leadership should have made that decision right away, rather than leaving players and recruits in limbo.
As far as why this topic has garnered so much discussion on the board, what else is there to talk about? The men's basketball team just finished another losing season and if help is coming, we don't know about it yet. It's not like Pierre Brooks and Jaden Akins are leaving Michigan State after their freshman seasons to return to the 313 and become the backcourt of the future. The last recruit we heard about was Sonny Johnson. We're kind of in news limbo right now, so it makes sense that the change of leadership for the Lady Titans would draw a lot of comments and observations.
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Post by ptctitan on Apr 3, 2022 18:08:32 GMT -5
For Titan fans, sadly, we celebrate Festivus every April.
For me, the more important question now is whether the same people and processes that gave us Scott and Gilbert are in charge of the "national search" for the next women's BB coach. Those past results do not give me a high level of confidence in the next product from the current national search.
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