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Post by upbasketballfan on Feb 24, 2022 15:32:32 GMT -5
The point about going D3 into the UAA (NYU, Washington, Chicago ETC) is the member schools of the UAA are well known, fine, large schools, which I think the fan base if the drop-down ever happens would rather play UAA schools than MIIA schools. I for one would rather come to an NYU/UDM game than a Hope/UDM game. I wouldn’t! I would rather see Hope which is a lot better basketball. I go to a game to see good basketball. If they did go anything less than what they are now I would not be a UD fan. It’s hard enough being one now, it’s almost more fun having a tooth pulled. Hopefully the new guy in charge will not be as stupid as the last few have been and will be proactive rather than reactive and maybe some more of the alumni can still remember where they went to College and remember some of the good days before the buffoons took over and have an interest in sharing that experience with others.
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Post by uofdfan1983 on Feb 24, 2022 15:36:01 GMT -5
so...let me get this straight: We're not gonna join the MAAC because of travel costs/lost education time, but we're going to drop to D3 and travel to NYC, Chicago etc. to play at a level where we're playing basically "just for fun." I have nothing against D3 if you're Cabrini University. But please, once and for all: we cannot waddle around in the muck any longer. We have one of the best scorers in the country on our roster and a head coach that 80% of teams in the U.S. would love to have. Together with their supporting cast, we have accomplished NOTHING so far. It's time to change that narrative now. Right now. Keep it going tonight. Two more regular season wins and then a run to the Tournament Championship. That should be our only focus right now. That'll put nonsense talk like this where it belongs. Come together, right now.....over WE !
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Post by upbasketballfan on Feb 24, 2022 17:48:59 GMT -5
Transfer players are not a bad thing, except the team has to start over each fall getting to know each other, kind of like a JUCO. I think the coaching ways of MD have been a problem, not that he is a bad coach, but rather some of his methodologies. For example, playing all road games before league games are in my view a bad policy, perhaps we could have 3 or 4 more W's if MD had a "normal' mid-major schedule. Then trying to mesh his star son with quality transfer players in my view has also been a problem, this program since AD and MD have arrived has been an AD program with little room for other quality players to fit. The brand change, but that's old news, the league, most U of D fans would come out for a Dayton, or Xavier, or DePaul game rather than the dash schools, again old news, last, the school administration seems happy where the program is at. Now they will always get a piece of the HL NCAA check and the schools seem happy to get paid to get beat pre-league games for a check. There are few new fans, I think the U of D is and will remain a low D1 team or drop down to a D2 or D3. If that happens I'd prefer D3 and playing the likes of NYU and Chicago. Fan you should realize the reason the U of D is such a tough spot for sports success is because that University has spit out so many negative Nellies thru the years. Bad location, string of terrible administrations and for the most part a really fickle fan base. Pretty tough to succeed down there. Gotta give the coaches and student athletes that do kudos it ain’t easy or as easy as some think. Assume you’ll be there supporting your alma mater for the rest of the season! Do NYU and Chicago still have scholarship players?
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Post by billebben on Feb 24, 2022 18:36:52 GMT -5
Nervous Nellie?? I have been a Titan Fan since 1957. My guess is that is before most of board were born. I have seen many highs and many lows. Never been this low looking at all factors mentioned above
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Post by happy on Feb 24, 2022 18:58:16 GMT -5
so...let me get this straight: We're not gonna join the MAAC because of travel costs/lost education time, but we're going to drop to D3 and travel to NYC, Chicago etc. to play at a level where we're playing basically "just for fun." I have nothing against D3 if you're Cabrini University. But please, once and for all: we cannot waddle around in the muck any longer. We have one of the best scorers in the country on our roster and a head coach that 80% of teams in the U.S. would love to have. Together with their supporting cast, we have accomplished NOTHING so far. It's time to change that narrative now. Right now. Keep it going tonight. Two more regular season wins and then a run to the Tournament Championship. That should be our only focus right now. That'll put nonsense talk like this where it belongs. Come together, right now.....over WE ! As Earl Nightingale said, "we become what we think about most of the time". Let's think about defending our home winning streak and start to think and make positive action going into the tournament.
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Post by fan on Feb 25, 2022 8:46:22 GMT -5
Well if you look at NYu's team, they have about 18 players, from all over the country, so they must give the players something, if not a scholarship, perhaps some type of grat and aid. The travel issue is a good point.
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Post by Commissioner on Feb 25, 2022 9:43:17 GMT -5
Well if you look at NYu's team, they have about 18 players, from all over the country, so they must give the players something, if not a scholarship, perhaps some type of grat and aid. The travel issue is a good point. They give them an NYU degree, and the rich financial aid packages that NYU can afford. No athletic aid allowed in D-3. But let's not talk nonsense, especially right now--we've just knocked off the #1, #3 and #4 teams in the standings in succession, and we've got a 15 game home court winning streak to protect and a chance at a first round bye in the HL tournament to think about.
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Post by billebben on Mar 20, 2022 9:28:26 GMT -5
Nervous Nellie?? I have been a Titan Fan since 1957. My guess is that is before most of board were born. I have seen many highs and many lows. Never been this low looking at all factors mentioned above
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Post by billebben on Mar 20, 2022 9:38:41 GMT -5
Nervous Nellie?? I have been a Titan Fan since 1957. My guess is that is before most of board were born. I have seen many highs and many lows. Never been this low looking at all factors mentioned above Anyone remember Charlie North or John North. They were thrown off team in the 60’s for talking to a gambler. With Dave DeBusschere these three could have been one of the greatest teams in Titan history. Henceforward the rollercoaster ride of Titan basketball history began. I could go on and on about the highs and lows. Will the coaster ever rise to the top again?
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Post by bigchuck on Mar 20, 2022 10:04:04 GMT -5
Anyone remember Charlie North or John North. They were thrown off team in the 60’s for talking to a gambler. With Dave DeBusschere these three could have been one of the greatest teams in Titan history. Henceforward the rollercoaster ride of Titan basketball history began. I could go on and on about the highs and lows. Will the coaster ever rise to the top again? They were thrown off the team and nothing was ever proven. Back in the days when the color of your skin affected the treatment you received. Thankfully, those days are gone, even if we are not perfect yet. Connie Hawkins and Don Nelson were also in the spotlight. Different era. I agree, that set back the program. We were a power team, but so were some of the New York area schools that were the center of the scandal.
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Post by ptctitan on Mar 20, 2022 10:05:30 GMT -5
Anyone remember Charlie North or John North. They were thrown off team in the 60’s for talking to a gambler. With Dave DeBusschere these three could have been one of the greatest teams in Titan history. Henceforward the rollercoaster ride of Titan basketball history began. I could go on and on about the highs and lows. Will the coaster ever rise to the top again? Yeah. I remember them. Charlie North and John Morgan. My father was a season ticketholder and would take me to football and basketball games back then. Those guys were giants to me way back then.
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Post by Commissioner on Mar 20, 2022 15:36:57 GMT -5
Anyone remember Charlie North or John North. They were thrown off team in the 60’s for talking to a gambler. With Dave DeBusschere these three could have been one of the greatest teams in Titan history. Henceforward the rollercoaster ride of Titan basketball history began. I could go on and on about the highs and lows. Will the coaster ever rise to the top again? They were thrown off the team and nothing was ever proven. Back in the days when the color of your skin affected the treatment you received. Thankfully, those days are gone, even if we are not perfect yet. Connie Hawkins and Don Nelson were also in the spotlight. Different era. I agree, that set back the program. We were a power team, but so were some of the New York area schools that were the center of the scandal. Well,... in fact, North actually admitted to agreeing to shave points--although he denied ever actually shaving points. I don't know that all the facts ever came out. Here is what I wrote about North and the scandal on the list of greatest Titans, summarizing two book length accounts of the scandal: North’s legacy and career were tarnished by the bit part he played in the NCAA point shaving scandal of 1961. It turns out that in December, 1960, North received a letter from an acquaintance, Mike Siegel, about playing on a summer resort team for money (it was common in those days for players to be set up with jobs at summer resorts, allowing them to earn some money and play a lot of summer ball, and also for guests and others to gamble on games at summer resorts, so there was money to be had in paying players). North gave a letter from Siegel to Calihan, who passed it up to AD John Mulroy. Mulroy said the letter was "ambiguous" and took no action. North then passed a second letter from Siegel on to Calihan. This one was apparently less ambiguous, and Calihan warned North that the activity suggested was "not permissible." He again passed the letter up to Mulroy, who again did nothing himself and notified neither the police nor the NCAA. Eventually North and Morgan agreed to meet with Siegel and an attorney named Charlie Tucker at a restaurant in Detroit, where they were asked to fix the December 22, 1960 game against Ohio State, in return for $1000 each. At first they balked, but then changed their minds. A meeting was scheduled at the restaurant on December 19, where they would collect their money. But there were a number of off-duty police in the restaurant that night, and seeing the cops, the fixers left, figuring they had been set up. Ultimately, then, the game was not fixed, and North led the Titans with 25 points in the loss to #1 OSU. At least that’s one version, told in Albert Figone’s “Cheating the Spread.”
The other version, in T.V. LoCicero’s “The Lessons of Sport,” goes like this: North and Morgan met with a couple fixers, but refused to go along. The man—whom North later described as “a fat guy with a Jewish name”—gave them each $50 (about $450 today after inflation), saying, “Here take it, just for meeting with me.” They took the money. Later, Siegel offered North $500 to shave points against Gonzaga, where the line favored the Titans by 15. North and Morgan agreed to the deal, but North later said that on the floor, the two “forgot about it all. We just played.” The Titans won by 5. North said he never saw any money.
In any case, the scandal came to light in the spring of 1961 as part of much wider collegiate gambling scandal, and both North and Morgan were expelled from UD.
The next year, behind DeBusschere and sophomore Dick Dzik, the Titans got an NCAA bid, but with North and Morgan--the two best players on the 1961 club after DeBusschere--they would likely have been a serious national title contender. Charlie’s tale is a sad one, because he wasn’t a bad guy. He was poor (and married with a child), perhaps a bit naive, and he was let down by Calihan and especially Mulroy, who should have taken more forceful action. He lost a likely NBA career, and after being expelled, had a difficult time finding a job. He worked as a garbage man and as a debt collector, and played minor league ball in the North American Basketball League. He eventually landed a job with the Detroit police department, working plainclothes in the Intelligence Division.I agree he got a raw deal, but he wasn't squeaky clean, either. I also think its unfair to attribute it race. 37 players were indicted, and many others, like North, got hit with lesser fall-out. But these included white players with only very tangential involvement and no evidence that they ever threw games or shaved points: For example, future NBA coach Doug Moe, who was banned from the NBA. Moe merely went to a meeting at the request of a friend, and turned down a request to throw games for $$. As with Hawkins, his ban was eventually lifted. Many of the players indicted or otherwise penalized were white, including Anton Muehlbauer, Stan Niewierowski and Terry Litchfield of North Carolina Stare; Mike Parenti of St. John's, Ray Paprocky of NYU, and a bunch of others. I'm not suggesting that the color of the different players' skins wasn't a factor in how various players were targeted and then treated--I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. But I do think it's lot more complex than race.
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Post by billebben on Mar 20, 2022 17:58:25 GMT -5
Thank you for great post. As a police officer I seem to remember he was involved in a shooting. I wonder what happened toJohn Morgan. They were initially recruited after playing at Coalinga J.C in Calif.
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Post by dennycrane on Apr 3, 2022 0:38:06 GMT -5
I've been wanting to address your 2 questions, billebben, and Final Four night seems like a good time to do that. Why are we losing and why are the stands mostly empty, you ask. I'd like to take the second part first, if I may.
In my opinion, the Kinsman-era decision to stand idly by while most of our respected, Catholic opponents left for greener pastures has been disastrous for Detroit basketball. Nobody cared then or now about seeing Wisconsin - Milwaukee, Illinois - Chicago, Wright State and the others on our schedule. Our home scheduling literally fell off a cliff. Yes, we actually took advantage of that for a five year span (1998 - 2002) under Perry Watson, who knew how to get talent to Calihan Hall and also knew how to mold a team from players who all pulled in the same direction. Once he stopped recruiting however, the team's performance fell off badly (see 2008). In fairness, Detroit were not alone in standing pat, back in 1994. Our Loyola pals also did that and did nothing in basketball for the next 20 years. They were worse than UD most of the time but finally in 2014, made their escape from the Horizon malaise, and, what do you know, were suddenly good under the same losing coach that they had. Butler too stood pat, won the Horizon several times in '02 - '12 and along the way were blessed with 2 NBA players (Hayward and Mack) and the excellent Coach Brad Stevens, also later of the NBA. They left the next season after their second NCAA championship game appearance in 2011.
All of this, billebben, was still not enough to convince Detroit that it was in a bad situation, one that was getting worse. But, the school really has no commitment to basketball or to the other sports either. A series of ineffective athletic directors has yielded just what you would expect - below average performance most of the time and loss of interest among fans, plus no interest at all from the general public. The leading sports talk radio station ignores UD from season to season. Occasionally, they make a mistake and make a point to mock the low attendance or some other failing of ours.
Regarding talent acquisition, billebben, do talented players want to play IUPUI, IPFW, Youngstown State and Robert Morris or do they want to play Marquette, Dayton, Xavier and DePaul? It's an easy answer. The school also can't get out of it's own way on the naming issue. To someone in Peoria IL, is Detroit Mercy a hospital? Or is Mercy University a sister school of the one in Iowa?
Is there a future for the Titans? A dim one, if there's one at all, I'm afraid.
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Post by billebben on Apr 3, 2022 8:53:47 GMT -5
Well there is next year. Maybe there is a Moses Malone clone out there who will have mercy on us
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