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Post by dennycrane on Apr 3, 2022 9:33:51 GMT -5
There's always next year, billebben, until there isn't. One of these days, a hard look is going to be taken at the planned decline in the program and decide the return just isn't there. A Moses Malone clone (I get the light-hearted suggestion)? The very weak leadership at the NCAA has allowed the large schools to plunder at will the rosters of the smaller schools. Even if you do uncover a gem in the rough, they find him and he's gone. It's even easier to raid successful coaches at mid-majors. Simply pay them more. St Peter's coach didn't even ride the bus home with his team last Sunday. He moved into his new office at Seton Hall.
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Post by uofdfan1983 on Apr 3, 2022 12:33:42 GMT -5
All of the hurdles, problems and changing landscape against the mid-majors are major obstacles for sure. But if you don't believe that U-D can become the next Gonzaga, or Butler or (if this doesn't show you we can do it, what does?) Loyola, then why bother to post? Why bother to support? Go to the games? Anything?
Better leadership is ahead. Better facilities are ahead. More donations are coming. If I don't believe that, I might as well quit supporting and believing. And my heart is a long way from that day of reckoning. So struggle on and continue to believe in a brighter future, or get off the ship. As Commish likes to say, support, or not. Your choice. But don't whine all the time about our plight. Do something.
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Post by calihanmole on Apr 15, 2022 18:24:21 GMT -5
The idea that UDM can even come close to resembling anything like Gonzaga is completely delusional.
I’ve reached the conclusion that in the current landscape of college basketball with loose transfer rules and NIL money for the elite programs, a school like UDM just can’t compete. It just can’t. Some “mid majors” with good brands in place, good facilities, and wealthy alumni to help orchestrate these NIL deals will be ok. But UDM just isn’t anywhere near being one of those exceptions.
Even if UDM does occasionally put together a good team, the talent will leave in April.
I think, for me, the reason to keep watching is just because it’s a school I attended and I really love college basketball. I hope we can win some games in conference play and the fact is with the changes, the conference tournament is now THE tournament. Just enjoy every game and root for your school. Nothing wrong with that. But this program will never be a perennial NCAA tournament team that lands 4 star recruits, draws big home crowds, and is a household name. Not gonna happen. Ever.
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Post by uofdfan1983 on Apr 15, 2022 18:26:56 GMT -5
Whoever sets up the polls around here should set this one up. Who is the most negative Titan Fan? 1. Calihan Mole 2.UP others?
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Post by rc on Apr 15, 2022 19:28:49 GMT -5
The idea that UDM can even come close to resembling anything like Gonzaga is completely delusional. I’ve reached the conclusion that in the current landscape of college basketball with loose transfer rules and NIL money for the elite programs, a school like UDM just can’t compete. It just can’t. Some “mid majors” with good brands in place, good facilities, and wealthy alumni to help orchestrate these NIL deals will be ok. But UDM just isn’t anywhere near being one of those exceptions. Even if UDM does occasionally put together a good team, the talent will leave in April. I think, for me, the reason to keep watching is just because it’s a school I attended and I really love college basketball. I hope we can win some games in conference play and the fact is with the changes, the conference tournament is now THE tournament. Just enjoy every game and root for your school. Nothing wrong with that. But this program will never be a perennial NCAA tournament team that lands 4 star recruits, draws big home crowds, and is a household name. Not gonna happen. Ever. I don’t agree at all. And I know this losing spell has been hard on all Titan fans. But I recall a losing period between 1980 and 1995 when Perry started winning and he gave us 5+ great years. Maybe that’s the best we can do, and as I’m over 60 now I only have so many years left lol, but I would take that period again. So I still have hope. I see the school’s endowment growing. I see new academic programs and stable enrollment. And I see the decline of EMU and CMU and I’m glad that’s not us. I also see the city of Detroit and Liv6 improving. So I still have hope that one day we will win again. But most importantly I’m glad the University is doing well with shiny new investments and I’m happy and not losing sleep over Antoine leaving.
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Post by ptctitan on Apr 15, 2022 19:40:03 GMT -5
I think you set up a strategic plan knowing that some goals are aspirational and others are more short range. And you begin the effort knowing that this university and its remaining fan base can no longer rely upon the magic coach formula. That only gets you to be a St. Peters. It took Loyola (CHI) about 15 years from committing to a stronger athletic program to the present day. The cash cow that is March Madness for the power schools is valuable specifically because it includes mid-majors with the chance of a Cinderella story every year. But to do so, people with bean counter mentalities must be marginalized. We can do NIL on a scale large enough to attract good players, but we need leadership with a sales mentality. People who understand the difference between capital investment and operating expenses. People who don't get caught up in who makes what salaries. Technology offers many opportunities for smaller universities to leverage more limited resources in athletics. At universities including ours, there are too many academics and administrators without a 21st century vision. During this holy week, I was thinking about the story of the angry Jesus upending the business as usual outside the Temple. We need more fans and alumni to join those of us who are tired of all the administrative envy and excuses and who are ready kick ass and take names. Most of all, we need people who are unafraid to dream big. Whatever you say about Elon Musk, I see more and more Teslas on the road and I can see his Space-X rockets launched on clear days from my side of my State. Ten years ago, a lot of people told him and pontificated to others that he couldn't accomplish anything close to these lofty goals. I don't know where this will take us and how long it will take. For me, I have begun the process to seed an NIL program for us that will help Coach Davis. I invite other insurgents here to join us. Together, we can make us competitive and drag the reluctant bureaucrats with us. Go Titans!
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Post by calihanmole on Apr 15, 2022 19:43:39 GMT -5
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Post by calihanmole on Apr 15, 2022 19:46:47 GMT -5
What’s big time NIL? How much $ we talking per player? Is it tied to a business?
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Post by bigchuck on Apr 15, 2022 21:17:31 GMT -5
Technology offers many opportunities for smaller universities to leverage more limited resources in athletics. For me, I have begun the process to seed an NIL program for us that Coach Davis called big time when I spoke with him today. Can you explain these two comments? How can UDM stand out in ways that others have not using technology? What is "big time" for NIL program in Coach Davis opinion? I do not think anyone knows what it is going to cost to "be competitive" in the new world. Some of numbers being bandied around are way higher than what many predicted would be the case. Some of the numbers are so high that there can be no business reason to pay the player that amount. It then deteriorates into a "legal" under the table payment. I question our ability to generate that kind of cash. We can't even get advertisements for a game program. Our branding problems do not help. Being a small fish in a big sports market does not help. It would be a lot easier for a business to justify a NIL advertising expense in a market where the media actually covered the team whose player they were paying. These are not things we can fix. Strategic plans must be modified as the world changes. The Div I college world has changed. I agree with a lot of your opinions, but differ on the big items. I have put money toward many "capital improvements" and also fund what you would call operating expenses but I consider "player welfare". I have become increasingly frustrated by the lack of a cohesive, realistic strategic plan for the athletic campus. There have been too many ideas, even a few plans and renderings, but yet to see a long range big view capital improve plan that is anywhere close to realistic in both funding ability and realistic time line. A couple of examples; Four years ago we pledged to the Outdoor athletic field. I was shown a plan, assurances were made that it would continue to completion and the budget was a little over 2 mil. Four years later, the pledge is completed, but nothing other than the lights have been completed and the field is unplayable. Even before the field solicitation I was told that the training room was the number 1 priority. It was outdated and it was next on the list after we finished the study room (which did not include some of the features we were told it would). Five years later we are solicited for funds to redo the Titan Club and when I asked why not the training room I was told a couple of different stories. Need I go on? Pardon me for being a cynical old man.
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Post by ptctitan on Apr 16, 2022 0:39:01 GMT -5
Technology offers many opportunities for smaller universities to leverage more limited resources in athletics. For me, I have begun the process to seed an NIL program for us that Coach Davis called big time when I spoke with him today. Can you explain these two comments? How can UDM stand out in ways that others have not using technology? What is "big time" for NIL program in Coach Davis opinion? I do not think anyone knows what it is going to cost to "be competitive" in the new world. Some of numbers being bandied around are way higher than what many predicted would be the case. Some of the numbers are so high that there can be no business reason to pay the player that amount. It then deteriorates into a "legal" under the table payment. I question our ability to generate that kind of cash. We can't even get advertisements for a game program. Our branding problems do not help. Being a small fish in a big sports market does not help. It would be a lot easier for a business to justify a NIL advertising expense in a market where the media actually covered the team whose player they were paying. These are not things we can fix. Strategic plans must be modified as the world changes. The Div I college world has changed. I agree with a lot of your opinions, but differ on the big items. I have put money toward many "capital improvements" and also fund what you would call operating expenses but I consider "player welfare". I have become increasingly frustrated by the lack of a cohesive, realistic strategic plan for the athletic campus. There have been too many ideas, even a few plans and renderings, but yet to see a long range big view capital improve plan that is anywhere close to realistic in both funding ability and realistic time line. A couple of examples; Four years ago we pledged to the Outdoor athletic field. I was shown a plan, assurances were made that it would continue to completion and the budget was a little over 2 mil. Four years later, the pledge is completed, but nothing other than the lights have been completed and the field is unplayable. Even before the field solicitation I was told that the training room was the number 1 priority. It was outdated and it was next on the list after we finished the study room (which did not include some of the features we were told it would). Five years later we are solicited for funds to redo the Titan Club and when I asked why not the training room I was told a couple of different stories. Need I go on? Pardon me for being a cynical old man. bigchuck - the changing landscape in D-1 sports with things like NIL plus a new university president gives those of us who are frustrated about the lack of strategic thinking in athletics the opportunity to see what the Trustees really want. In the interim, I and others will act tactically on certain things that we can control. In a few more weeks, I will become an "expert" on NIL and can speak more constructively on details. What is "big time" for a mid-major school like us may be petty cash at a Power 5 school like ND. However, there are things that we can do that we can control and therefore keep insulated from the internal pettiness exemplified on this board by the silly arguments over salaries. There is so much that must be done that sometimes we must just start swinging the sledge hammer and knock down some walls ourselves. Contact me offline. Happy Easter! Athletes used to be able to earn spending money through summer jobs. Not any more. The Power schools like U-M killed that goose with jobs that paid above-market rates for no-show jobs. Some of U-M's "jobs" were as alleged security guards. Ohio State allegedly made Clark Kellogg a life insurance salesman or something like it with lots of boosters buying expensive life insurance policies from "him." I envision being able to help match an athlete with appropriate NIL income that fits into his (and ultimately her) major because the odds of most athletes turning high-level pro are very low - even those at the power 5 schools. So, there could be an element of a co-op program mixed in with NIL. State laws require NIL income to reflect the current market value of the athlete's name, image, or likeness. And they claim to prevent the use of these contracts to induce a recruit to attend a school or to retain a transfer at a school. The key is to have a series of opportunities readily available to athletes so that after they have enrolled, they can try and find the one that fits the marketing needs of the entity or person offering the deal and fits the future career plans of the athlete. I think what these kids are being told are that such and such university has $__________ of NIL opportunities available to each of its players. The kids are hearing that if you play hoops at that university, you will receive $___________ of NIL money. So, there's a bit of cognitive dissonance occurring and the power schools are willing to let that occur. Also, since this is the first real recruiting year for using NIL, the power schools are trying to see how much they can get away with and where the lines will be drawn. After all, the shoe money and AAU coach scheme did not end well for some people and some schools. Since legally, NIL cannot be used as a recruiting inducement, I don't think the power schools are dumb enough to say directly, "Sign with us and you will earn $250K in NIL income annually during your tenure here." So what I intend to seed is a list of NIL opportunities for athletes so they know that if they decide to come play here, there will be real opportunities for them to earn legitimate NIL revenue from people and entities some of which may even have a logical connection to their declared majors or areas of interest. And this is what is "big time" for what I envision. From a strategic perspective, we have to strengthen men's hoops first because that is the only program currently that can drive lots of publicity and NCAA tourney revenue to our program so that our other sports can be on a sounder financial footing. Therefore, we should seek coaching stability and program improvements that benefit that sport first without treating the other sports unfairly. If some improvements benefit all sports, that's even better. The strategic objective is to leverage the outsized interest in men's hoops to drive more public interest in the program, the university, the city, and the neighborhood. Some tangible goals would be more applications, more enrollment, more revenue, more donations, better facilities, better attendance, a better fan experience, and better personnel in the administration in Athletics. Because we are not a football school, we will never have the critical mass of those schools. But through a commitment to obvious strategic goals with the full support of the Trustees, the new President, the entire staff in Athletics, and the rest of the colleges in our university, we can make this work for us. The lessons of Loyola and even schools like Gonzaga and Villanova are that what we start this year may take years to realize its full potential. Basically, we are at the demolition phase in the typical home remodeling show and when we have knocked the plaster off its walls, we have discovered a lot more rot and other structural problems than we thought existed ten years ago. So, do we throw up our hands and quit? Or do we roll up our sleeves and begin the long task to fix the problems. Unfortunately, this will not be a heavily edited 30-60 minute pseudo-reality show. It will be the real thing. IMO, the cost is worth the likely strategic benefits.
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Post by calihanmole on Apr 16, 2022 8:17:33 GMT -5
Good for you for trying to do something, ptc. Forget about how much a player might receive with what you have in mind.
Can you name a business entity where you have any kind of influence, or businesses that might be on your “list” of opportunities for players at Detroit Mercy? It seems that without logical businesses that have a reason to pay players to be part of advertisement arrangements, NIL does not work.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 16, 2022 10:03:33 GMT -5
Back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, the Titans were a player on the national landscape. Not a major power like Kentucky or Indiana, or even a power on par with Notre Dame or Villanova (then hardly the monster it is today), but a player, whose best teams would be nationally ranked and make one of the two major tournaments, and whose best players would garner All-America recognition (sort of where, perhaps, Seton Hall is today). The Titans played in what was then s state of the art facility and hosted the Motor City Tournament, a fixture on the scheduling landscape. During the Vitale/Gaines era, the Titans were in the top 50 in the country in attendance and could compete for and sign recruits in the Top 100 nationwide. Beginning with the penny-wise, pound-foolish moves that forced out Smokey Gaines, it has been one mistake after another, the decline halted only by the decision to hire Perry Watson and (maybe) Ray McCallum (sadly, Keri Gaither, the one AD with any vision over this period, self-destructed and harmed the program). Over the ensuing 40 years, college basketball has steadily divided into haves and have-nots, and Detroit has missed many opportunities to try to stay in the "have" group. With each miss, the window of opportunity has declined, and our advantages have steadily declined, including many outside of our control, such as the rapid decline in the city population and the decline of Detroit as a recruiting Mecca. The situation now is much tougher and more dire than when Dick Vitale took over (as just one obvious reference point, note that the Titans were ranked 18th in the nation just 16 months before Vitale was hired). Everything said about the difficulties of becoming the next Butler or Gonzaga is true.
All that said, I see zero point in constantly posting on a fan board about how there is no future and we should give it up and root for someone else. There's a line one crosses from pointing out the challenges we face and trying to formulate realistic expectations, to becoming a harpie who seems more interested in discouraging than in encouraging fan support; between being critical but constructive and just being negative. If you don't want to root for the Titans, don't root for the Titans. If you don't want to support efforts to improve the program, because you see them as futile, then don't support those efforts. But I see no reason to try to discourage others from rooting for the Titans or trying to do something positive.
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Post by rc on Apr 16, 2022 10:31:14 GMT -5
I agree Commish, and for me personally I’ll be a Titan fan until I die. There are many factors that make things a challenge for us, and for most others schools like us, but we have had good programs in the past and I believe we will again. Though I thought President Garibaldi did a great job for the University overall, the men’s basketball program has lagged since Ray McCallum and in retrospect we probably should have given him more time as he recruited well most years and was a good representative for the school (and at the age he was, he might have finished his career with us).
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Post by bigchuck on Apr 16, 2022 11:03:39 GMT -5
All that said, I see zero point in constantly posting on a fan board about how there is no future and we should give it up and root for someone else. There's a line one crosses from pointing out the challenges we face and trying to formulate realistic expectations, to becoming a harpie who seems more interested in discouraging than in encouraging fan support; between being critical but constructive and just being negative. If you don't want to root for the Titans, don't root for the Titans. If you don't want to support efforts to improve the program, because you see them as futile, then don't support those efforts. But I see no reason to try to discourage others from rooting for the Titans or trying to do something positive. There is another side to this coin. I am tired of hearing how we were, what we did wrong 50 years ago. I was there. I enjoyed the ride. I supported the ride. That ride is over. That world has changed. I liked Ray and did not want him fired, but when he made the NCAA 10 years ago we were only seeded 15th and played Kansas. I remember the trip. Our guys lost, but our Dance Team won over the KU fans. Not much else went right. Things have gone downhill from there. I have always supported the Titans financially and by attendance both as UD or as UDM. I will continue to do so in D-1, D-2, or D-3 or NAIA. I have heard too many of the posters that are supposed fans "forever" define that support as contingent on D-1 level. So if you think my side of the coin is too negative so be it. D-1 sports is a business. We have done a poor job running the business and thinking that we are going to make a rapid turn around is not supported by the facts.
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Post by Commissioner on Apr 16, 2022 12:06:07 GMT -5
All that said, I see zero point in constantly posting on a fan board about how there is no future and we should give it up and root for someone else. There's a line one crosses from pointing out the challenges we face and trying to formulate realistic expectations, to becoming a harpie who seems more interested in discouraging than in encouraging fan support; between being critical but constructive and just being negative. If you don't want to root for the Titans, don't root for the Titans. If you don't want to support efforts to improve the program, because you see them as futile, then don't support those efforts. But I see no reason to try to discourage others from rooting for the Titans or trying to do something positive. There is another side to this coin. I am tired of hearing how we were, what we did wrong 50 years ago. I was there. I enjoyed the ride. I supported the ride. That ride is over. That world has changed. I liked Ray and did not want him fired, but when he made the NCAA 10 years ago we were only seeded 15th and played Kansas. I remember the trip. Our guys lost, but our Dance Team won over the KU fans. Not much else went right. Things have gone downhill from there. I have always supported the Titans financially and by attendance both as UD or as UDM. I will continue to do so in D-1, D-2, or D-3 or NAIA. I have heard too many of the posters that are supposed fans "forever" define that support as contingent on D-1 level. So if you think my side of the coin is too negative so be it. D-1 sports is a business. We have done a poor job running the business and thinking that we are going to make a rapid turn around is not supported by the facts. I was thinking more of a poster who in recent posts (and, actually, in posts over a long period) has argued that a top priority for the new president should be considering a move to D-3, that the Titans "can't compete," that the program can never be a perennial tournament team [there are, BTW, quite a few perennial terms from small conferences], that "our fan base should disband and we should all pledge allegiance to new programs" [this may have been tongue in cheek"]; that there's "no much point in investing" in the program, and that he basically roots for another team because it has better odds of winning; and from I don't recall hearing a positive word in months.
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