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Post by upbasketballfan on Jan 23, 2021 9:45:25 GMT -5
UP You are making a lot of assumptions from few facts. I would expect them to play better than last year. They were among the youngest teams in Div 1 last year. The new transfers had experience also. We had one senior last year. I thought the players could have been worked harder last year, but I think we should be following the rules. I am shocked that we apparently had little oversight of the program that this could happen out of the blue. We know the background of who we hired. We believe in second chances and have given Gilbert the opportunity. That's fine and I was looking forward to future successes. But good management dictates that there should have been close oversight of the program. This did not happen. I know some of the parents I do not believe they would be complicit in a plot. Among the parents are high school coaches and former collegiate athletes both men and women. For every family to be involved in the "plot" is a stretch, but possible. I am not saying fire the coach. I am saying that she should be sidelined pending an investigation. If your assumptions are correct, it will come out. If they are not, that will come out. I also believe that the season should not have been cancelled. Other teams have continued while coaches have been sidelined. Women's basketball should be no different. Chuck I trust your opinion on this 100%. I know how involved you and your wife are in the University and the Women's program. My being skeptical comes from quite a few past experiences involving parents ideas on how a coach should be coaching and the coaches control over playing time. I have always felt that a team is a Dictatorship more than a Democracy. I have a problem with the players and parents saying the Coach does not use proper time management and when and how team meetings are called. A Coach is in control of playing time and no one else. My thoughts on this do keep drifting to Tim Webb and the lone Senior. Parents will do a lot and back their children above and beyond, and they should. I hope that an investigation has already started and that Miller and Vowels and maybe you interview each student athlete privately and then as a team, without the coach, in a locker room setting. My first interview would be with the Senior who recently seems to be getting more playing time and attention. She in a private setting might give some helpful insight. If you do not want to be involved then Garibaldi, but if you are there then there is less chance that things get swept under the carpet. I also feel the season should not be cancelled and we do have an obligation to those who wish to continue and to the rest of the League. The lack of oversight to allow this to get to this point is alarming! We should finish what we start. Who will coach the team? I think at this point Tim Webb can not be that person. If I did use or refer that there was a "plot" maybe I should have made a reference to it being more of an emotional snowball. Maybe at this point we need to summon on one or some of our inner Ristovski's.
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Post by udballer on Jan 23, 2021 10:55:53 GMT -5
So the options are down to:
A) the coach's second chance was squandered as she continued with her past pattern of indiscretions, abused or basketball players.
B) there is an ongoing, far-reaching plot from all of our players and family falsely accusing the coach of indiscretions because the entire team is stocked with "nanby pambys".
C) some combination of the two.
In what scenario should Vowels not be held accountable? The only option that I'd see not leading to a probable cancellation of the season would be A. However it's sliced, the Women's Basketball program is in complete disarray as of today. In an abnormal season wrought by COVID, I'm okay with the decision to cancel.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Jan 23, 2021 11:25:52 GMT -5
So the options are down to: A) the coach's second chance was squandered as she continued with her past pattern of indiscretions, abused or basketball players. B) there is an ongoing, far-reaching plot from all of our players and family falsely accusing the coach of indiscretions because the entire team is stocked with "nanby pambys". C) some combination of the two. In what scenario should Vowels not be held accountable? The only option that I'd see not leading to a probable cancellation of the season would be A. However it's sliced, the Women's Basketball program is in complete disarray as of today. In an abnormal season wrought by COVID, I'm okay with the decision to cancel. Yup it's always easier to quit than fight on! That seems to be an ongoing theme. I think there needs to be a substantial investigation before we jump to conclusions and cancelling is an excuse for some to not do their duties. I hope we are still going with the " innocent until proven guilty program" and I am making the assumption that there are still some of the girls who want to play. Lets make Vowels show us he can do his job, at least once.
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Post by udballer on Jan 23, 2021 12:12:09 GMT -5
So the options are down to: A) the coach's second chance was squandered as she continued with her past pattern of indiscretions, abused or basketball players. B) there is an ongoing, far-reaching plot from all of our players and family falsely accusing the coach of indiscretions because the entire team is stocked with "nanby pambys". C) some combination of the two. In what scenario should Vowels not be held accountable? The only option that I'd see not leading to a probable cancellation of the season would be A. However it's sliced, the Women's Basketball program is in complete disarray as of today. In an abnormal season wrought by COVID, I'm okay with the decision to cancel. Yup it's always easier to quit than fight on! That seems to be an ongoing theme. I think there needs to be a substantial investigation before we jump to conclusions and cancelling is an excuse for some to not do their duties. I hope we are still going with the " innocent until proven guilty program" and I am making the assumption that there are still some of the girls who want to play. Lets make Vowels show us he can do his job, at least once. Who suggested that cancellation was an alternative to a substantial investigation? This needs to be fully vetted, regardless. "Innocent until proven guilty" should apply to both the coach as well as the players / families in this scenario. As I've never been one to latch on to wild conspiracy theories... I'd say the most likely scenario is (A). Based on your writings, I can only assume that you feel the coach had completely turned herself around after learning from her past missteps and is now the victim of a conspiracy led by an entire team of weaklings and their weakling parents... none of whom have any issues with lying publicly to defame the university that offered their children scholarships to play basketball. As I noted above, I think it's (A)... which could have led to potentially not canceling the season. My assumption is that beyond the coach, there is nobody on staff capable of leading... or being followed... to allow us to finish. Being that the assistant is wrapped up in this on both sides, that sounds legit to me.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Jan 23, 2021 12:48:42 GMT -5
I guess my problem is I am looking at this from all sides. In my time I was an abused player but didn't know it because when I was a player pushing yourself past total exhaustion was a way of getting better and working on the things where you were the weakest was a way of getting better. A coach grabbing your facemask and spitting in your face back then was not uncommon. You sucked it up and went even harder. I was the parent of 3 really extraordinary athletes and tried to stay out of the way and in two instances I was too slow to react. I was the coach and had to deal with the parents and the last two instances is how Vardar got its origin. I was the Administrator who had to deal with the same problems we are discussing, multiple times. I am sure that most of us have accomplished things we thought not possible until we attempted them. I used to love using the " remember the first few moments and passion you had when you were notified of your selection and all the great things you planned to accomplish". Well its not too late to get back to finishing the job and doing what you know in your heart is the right path". This coach might have been trying to forward the feeling when you are truly in condition of being able to run and feel like your feet are not touching the ground or jumping when it feels like you are suspended. That feeling does not come without some real sacrifices. My main problem with this is how did it get to this point with Miller being there most of the time. Where was the over sight. Where was the "inspect what you expect".
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Post by calihanmole on Jan 23, 2021 13:08:23 GMT -5
I actually have no problem with a team rule that says an athlete needs to run the mile under a certain time to play in games. This is a division one basketball program (supposedly, and for now). A mile time is an ok metric that indicates how conditioned a person is. Not perfect, and not totally indicative of their overall basketball skills. But, holy shit, a D1 woman basketball player should be able to run a mile in under 7 minutes.
I think the most damning thing was the coach pressuring student athletes to change majors. If that comes out to be true then wow that’s pretty serious.
As already said, you don’t get 14 student athletes and their parents to come out with this unless something was seriously wrong. The coach deserves some type of chance to explain herself, but considering her past at EMU it looks like a pattern. We all know the end result of this. She will be fired. There will probably be some kind of NCAA investigation, probation (going over practice time), and a shit ton of money and resources used to investigate this and pay legal fees (wrongful termination suit).
Just the latest series in a string of Robert Vowels screw ups.
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Post by calihanmole on Jan 23, 2021 14:42:27 GMT -5
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Post by larrytitan on Jan 23, 2021 16:36:29 GMT -5
Note Bacari’s salary at $300,000
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Post by ptctitan on Jan 25, 2021 7:26:46 GMT -5
Although I am very concerned by the contents of the actual letter, I have some questions about believing everything in it.
First, the letter is signed by the parents - not the players. So, the parents are repeating what their daughters have told them after they all conferred together on a Zoom call. How many players told their parents about what they experienced versus what other teammates told them?
Second, Gilbert was hired to change the culture in the women's program. Ten of the 14 players were recruited by Scott to play in a relaxed "We are family" culture with many photos of trips to various restaurants and outside basketball team activities that were supposed to build togetherness. The result from this approach was 3 wins per season. How many of these complaints result from the change in coaching style versus Scott versus real complaints?
Third, on the class and major change claims, did the players change their labs or their majors? Sounds like they did not. Could the players have reached their end academic goals through a different major? Could they have taken the same labs in the summer and reached their academic objectives on time? The letter does not address those issues. Did these players seek to make up their lost practice time? Because there are other complaints that players were criticized for not working out on basketball on their own time.
Fourth, much of the language in the letter seems copied and pasted from the claims about Greg Marshall at Wichita State (the assistant coach claims) and the claims swirling around the PFW women's coach (injuries, trainer, self-harm and mental stress.)
Fifth, if their mental stress were so great and real, then why were the players ready to play last weekend if there were a different coach? And why did they suggest the coaches for whom they would play? And why was one of those coaches the husband of one of the signees?
Sixth, if these issues at practice and on the sidelines of games were so evident to all, then where were Associate AD Teri Kromrei and Associate AD Mike Miller? Kromrei is the direct department supervisor of the women's BB team. Miller is the Associate AD in charge of sports medicine and the head trainer of the women's team. Why wasn't Kromrei monitoring Gilbert closely given her past history? Why wasn't Miller aware of at least some of these things? The letter seems to build in an excuse for Miller by claiming that the players never got to him with their complaints because Gilbert made them afraid. Their absences also place Gilbert in a tough spot because it is clear that the parents are trying to use Gilbert's past history as leverage to get her fired.
Seventh, the letter talks about player concerns that they were injured and the coach asking why they needed to see a team doctor. If my kid asked to see a doctor rather than go to school, I'd ask her why she needed to see the doctor. I had several coaches ask me whether I was injured or just in pain. If I said just in pain, I was frequently told to play through it.
Eighth, the letter talked about several instances of practices exceeding time limits. Several means more than a few, but not a lot. The letter makes it sound like the players viewed themselves as hourly employees complaining about a lack of overtime pay because the coach kept talking to them 15 minutes over the limit "several" times.
Ninth, I am concerned by the fact that parents of the players recruited by Gilbert and Coach Webb's wife also signed the letter. And this makes me concerned that some of the allegations are true to an unknown extent. When I weigh this fact against the prior 8 concerns, I am left uncertain and open to these things being true to some extent.
I think that given their claims of possible mental anxiety, risk of self-harm and untreated physical injuries, Vowels made the right decision to suspend their season. Also, I think the truth is likely somewhere between the claims in the letter and total vindication for Gilbert. But I am uncertain about how close to either extreme we will find the truth. One thing is certain. This was a preventable situation if the Associate AD in charge of the program had kept on top of things.
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Post by Commissioner on Jan 25, 2021 12:46:05 GMT -5
Although I am very concerned by the contents of the actual letter, I have some questions about believing everything in it. First, the letter is signed by the parents - not the players. So, the parents are repeating what their daughters have told them after they all conferred together on a Zoom call. How many players told their parents about what they experienced versus what other teammates told them? Second, Gilbert was hired to change the culture in the women's program. Ten of the 14 players were recruited by Scott to play in a relaxed "We are family" culture with many photos of trips to various restaurants and outside basketball team activities that were supposed to build togetherness. The result from this approach was 3 wins per season. How many of these complaints result from the change in coaching style versus Scott versus real complaints? Third, on the class and major change claims, did the players change their labs or their majors? Sounds like they did not. Could the players have reached their end academic goals through a different major? Could they have taken the same labs in the summer and reached their academic objectives on time? The letter does not address those issues. Did these players seek to make up their lost practice time? Because there are other complaints that players were criticized for not working out on basketball on their own time. Fourth, much of the language in the letter seems copied and pasted from the claims about Greg Marshall at Wichita State (the assistant coach claims) and the claims swirling around the PFW women's coach (injuries, trainer, self-harm and mental stress.) Fifth, if their mental stress were so great and real, then why were the players ready to play last weekend if there were a different coach? And why did they suggest the coaches for whom they would play? And why was one of those coaches the husband of one of the signees? Sixth, if these issues at practice and on the sidelines of games were so evident to all, then where were Associate AD Teri Kromrei and Associate AD Mike Miller? Kromrei is the direct department supervisor of the women's BB team. Miller is the Associate AD in charge of sports medicine and the head trainer of the women's team. Why wasn't Kromrei monitoring Gilbert closely given her past history? Why wasn't Miller aware of at least some of these things? The letter seems to build in an excuse for Miller by claiming that the players never got to him with their complaints because Gilbert made them afraid. Their absences also place Gilbert in a tough spot because it is clear that the parents are trying to use Gilbert's past history as leverage to get her fired. Seventh, the letter talks about player concerns that they were injured and the coach asking why they needed to see a team doctor. If my kid asked to see a doctor rather than go to school, I'd ask her why she needed to see the doctor. I had several coaches ask me whether I was injured or just in pain. If I said just in pain, I was frequently told to play through it. Eighth, the letter talked about several instances of practices exceeding time limits. Several means more than a few, but not a lot. The letter makes it sound like the players viewed themselves as hourly employees complaining about a lack of overtime pay because the coach kept talking to them 15 minutes over the limit "several" times. Ninth, I am concerned by the fact that parents of the players recruited by Gilbert and Coach Webb's wife also signed the letter. And this makes me concerned that some of the allegations are true to an unknown extent. When I weigh this fact against the prior 8 concerns, I am left uncertain and open to these things being true to some extent. I think that given their claims of possible mental anxiety, risk of self-harm and untreated physical injuries, Vowels made the right decision to suspend their season. Also, I think the truth is likely somewhere between the claims in the letter and total vindication for Gilbert. But I am uncertain about how close to either extreme we will find the truth. One thing is certain. This was a preventable situation if the Associate AD in charge of the program had kept on top of things. It's almost always a good idea to hear both sides before rushing to judgment.
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Post by udballer on Jan 25, 2021 20:49:26 GMT -5
Where there's smoke, there is usually fire. In this case the smoke is coming from an entire team, with zero conflicting accounts from players on the team... or parents. If there was zero reason for concern, I highly doubt this would have gotten this far.
What is certain is that the WBB brand is further tarnished and, wrongdoing or not, this coach is wrapped up in that. Her past indiscretions put her between a rock and a hard place in this situation. I see no outcome where she remains head basketball coach, unless we plan on keeping the coach and walking through the chemistry labs signing up any girl over 4'11" for basketball...
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Post by upbasketballfan on Jan 25, 2021 23:34:37 GMT -5
Where there's smoke, there is usually fire. In this case the smoke is coming from an entire team, with zero conflicting accounts from players on the team... or parents. If there was zero reason for concern, I highly doubt this would have gotten this far. What is certain is that the WBB brand is further tarnished and, wrongdoing or not, this coach is wrapped up in that. Her past indiscretions put her between a rock and a hard place in this situation. I see no outcome where she remains head basketball coach, unless we plan on keeping the coach and walking through the chemistry labs signing up any girl over 4'11" for basketball... Usually is not always. This is the BA JJ story all over again and both under the same administration. There has to be some girls on this team that want to continue the season. I feel for Gilbert here and would love to know how it got to this point.
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Post by ptctitan on Jan 26, 2021 6:59:51 GMT -5
This is not the first time in the history of this school that a player mutiny over a strict coach has occurred.
Our men's team went through a similar situation in 1969-70 when Jim Harding replaced Bob Calihan as head coach. Harding coached like the meanest possible marine dill sergeant. The players mutinied because they were used to Calihan's style and they didn't like Harding. And Harding could behave like a miserable SOB often. The allegations in the parents' letter about Gilbert make her sound like a choir girl compared to some of the practices I saw Harding conduct. This experience also influences my thinking on this issue. So, yeah, there is likely some smoke here. But it could be coming from the singed ears of players of whom Gilbert demanded a greater effort than they were used to giving to Coach Scott. So, I'm willing to wait and see what happens from the AD's investigation into the letter.
I see that already one of Scott's recruits, Annika Corcoran, has tweeted her transfer to Akron.
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Post by udballer on Jan 26, 2021 8:30:03 GMT -5
Where there's smoke, there is usually fire. In this case the smoke is coming from an entire team, with zero conflicting accounts from players on the team... or parents. If there was zero reason for concern, I highly doubt this would have gotten this far. What is certain is that the WBB brand is further tarnished and, wrongdoing or not, this coach is wrapped up in that. Her past indiscretions put her between a rock and a hard place in this situation. I see no outcome where she remains head basketball coach, unless we plan on keeping the coach and walking through the chemistry labs signing up any girl over 4'11" for basketball... Usually is not always. This is the BA JJ story all over again and both under the same administration. There has to be some girls on this team that want to continue the season. I feel for Gilbert here and would love to know how it got to this point. "Has to be" is not "are". 😉 I've got to believe at this point we have zero that want to continue under the current coach. I'm not a fan of letting players pick their coach, so I was okay with the cancellation. The BA / JJ story, in my opinion, worked out the way it should have,... with neither leading the program today. If I knew the truth behind this story, it's quite possible that I'd feel for Gilbert as well. That said, if I were her I'd have been overly cautious around (at least) those things that constitute NCAA violations. There seems to be an oversight failure here as well but with her history you can't just go out and break some fundamental rules (if proven to be true).
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Post by upbasketballfan on Jan 26, 2021 9:44:02 GMT -5
I realize the players are young people but the parents have absolutely no business in this. If one of my players didn't want to practice and requested seeing a Dr. I would want to know why and if one of my children played for a coach who didn't want to know. I would no longer want that person coaching my child. I agree with the mole earlier, if a D1 player can not run a mile in under 7 min. I wouldn't want them on the floor not only for the team but for their health. Did you ever have a class where the prof. wanted to make sure you understood the point under discussion so he took some time after class to cover the subject? I would consider this a good experience and a sign of someone who cares. There are a couple of decent pieces on this team but we might have made some promises to keep them that made the transition even more difficult. Scott seemed to be a decent guy but he sure looked like an intramural coach to me. Lets not forget he also was a Vowels hire. Where was the oversight and what was Gilbert told when she was hired? Was she given a structure to work within or was she just thrown the keys and led to believe she had a free hand. A coach does have full control on who plays and how much they play and at the end of the season a player has the opportunity to leave if they choose to do so. I am not reading anything about someone's scholarship being pulled or any threat to do so. I did notice that Tim Webb's daughter did not play in the two games prior to this coming out and neither did Maxine Moore. These two from what I saw were team leaders and do have prior ties and loyalties to Webb. I am also thinking Moore is the player or one of the players who would have trouble with a 7 min. mile.
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