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Post by fan on Sept 5, 2023 15:00:42 GMT -5
Ray certainly could recruit the pieces he needed, what he lacked in X's and O's he made up with his coaching staff. I'm not sure MD recruits that well, he may not even like it. He seems to have a "bee" line to players from Texas or the SE, it really hasn't worked out well for him.
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Post by Commissioner on Sept 5, 2023 17:50:26 GMT -5
There seems to be a growing bout of nostalgia for Ray (not aiming this at Sam, who was always vociferously in Ray's corner). Wish some of the post on the old board had been archived to see what people were saying at the time.
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Post by ptctitan on Sept 6, 2023 5:45:27 GMT -5
Ray certainly could recruit the pieces he needed, what he lacked in X's and O's he made up with his coaching staff. I'm not sure MD recruits that well, he may not even like it. He seems to have a "bee" line to players from Texas or the SE, it really hasn't worked out well for him. After Ray lost Briggs and Thomas as his top 2 assistants in October 2012 and after Ray Jr, Calliste, and Minnerath departed in Spring 2013, Ray's record was 44-52 .458 over his final 3 seasons. In his last 3 seasons, Davis is 40-45 .470. A virtual dead heat. Ray encountered just as many eligibility issues (maybe more) than Davis. Bass and Foster-Smith were academically ineligible to play for entire seasons. Blake lost eligibility mid-season. Shy McClellan was announced, but never made the roster. Players like Ackerman, Solanke, Lippert, and Dos Santos came and went - they were not the pieces he needed. Three key components of Ray's successful rosters were transfers from 4-year schools, Simon, Holman, and Lowe. Also, Juwan Howard, Jr and Chris Jenkins were transfers from 4-year schools. All 5 players had to sit out a year under the transfer rules at that time. But now, some complain that Tchikou may have to sit out a year if the NCAA does not grant him a waiver. I point out the foregoing only to show how memories can be selective - especially as time passes. I hope that Alex gets his waiver and can play this year.
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Post by fan on Sept 6, 2023 7:31:04 GMT -5
I liked Ray, and enjoyed watching his teams play, I thought Ray was a class act, and it was fun watching Ray Jr play at Country Day and then move up to UDM. Like many teams, they have some good wins, and some ups and downs, MD's teams except for AD (except the last Oakland win) have had no big wins or ups. So comparing MD's teams and Ray's teams, to me there is no comparison. To move further, comparing PW's teams to MD's teams....well.
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Post by motorcitysam on Sept 6, 2023 12:02:05 GMT -5
There seems to be a growing bout of nostalgia for Ray (not aiming this at Sam, who was always vociferously in Ray's corner). Wish some of the post on the old board had been archived to see what people were saying at the time. Believe me, I didn't archive anything, but I remember. I remember the people who blamed Ray for the Titans not being 20-2 after a start to the season that included road games at Michigan, Oregon, Toledo, Rhode Island, UCF and Arizona State, along with home games against South Florida and #11 Wichita State. I remember posting "congrats to the Titans for winning 20 games" after they hit that mark in the 2012-13 season, and a couple of posters responding that winning 20 games wasn't that big of a deal anymore. I remember several people making the case that "we can't get any worse" than we were with Ray at the helm. I recall people blaming Ray for players becoming ineligible over a year after he was fired. I remember who said that stuff, but I won't call them out by name. I hold grudges, but I'm not unforgiving. I know you were not a Ray basher, even if you might have thought that it was worth making a change. That was reasonable. Legitimate criticism of Ray never bothered me; he wasn't perfect. But I think he was underappreciated while he was here.
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Post by motorcitysam on Sept 6, 2023 12:18:00 GMT -5
Ray certainly could recruit the pieces he needed, what he lacked in X's and O's he made up with his coaching staff. I'm not sure MD recruits that well, he may not even like it. He seems to have a "bee" line to players from Texas or the SE, it really hasn't worked out well for him. After Ray lost Briggs and Thomas as his top 2 assistants in October 2012 and after Ray Jr, Calliste, and Minnerath departed in Spring 2013, Ray's record was 44-52 .458 over his final 3 seasons. In his last 3 seasons, Davis is 40-45 .470. A virtual dead heat. Ray encountered just as many eligibility issues (maybe more) than Davis. Bass and Foster-Smith were academically ineligible to play for entire seasons. Blake lost eligibility mid-season. Shy McClellan was announced, but never made the roster. Players like Ackerman, Solanke, Lippert, and Dos Santos came and went - they were not the pieces he needed. Three key components of Ray's successful rosters were transfers from 4-year schools, Simon, Holman, and Lowe. Also, Juwan Howard, Jr and Chris Jenkins were transfers from 4-year schools. All 5 players had to sit out a year under the transfer rules at that time. But now, some complain that Tchikou may have to sit out a year if the NCAA does not grant him a waiver. I point out the foregoing only to show how memories can be selective - especially as time passes. I hope that Alex gets his waiver and can play this year. That's burying the lede to make it appear as if Ray and MD have done a similar job at U-D. You're comparing Ray's worst years with MD's best. A more accurate comparison would be Ray's first five years and Mike's first five years. Davis has had some bad luck and some things beyond his control as Titan coach. Ray had some of those same things, plus was screwed by both of his ADs, one who was literally screwing a member of his staff and another who forced him to hire an assistant coach who wanted Ray to get fired so he could take the head coach job. Ray still managed to do pretty good, even in a conference tougher than the current HL. And speaking of selective memories, plenty of people on the boards complained regularly when Bass, Foster-Smith, and others had to sit out, and when guys like McClellen and BJ Jenkins announced their commitments to the Titans but never suited up. No one gave Ray a pass on that. I'm a Davis fan. I was glad the Titans hired him. I hope he can turn things around. He's clearly had a more impressive career overall than Ray. But this tendency to downplay Ray's performance to make Davis (and BA) look better does Ray and his players a disservice.
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Post by fan on Sept 6, 2023 13:50:14 GMT -5
Agreed.............
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Post by ptctitan on Sept 6, 2023 14:42:04 GMT -5
After Ray lost Briggs and Thomas as his top 2 assistants in October 2012 and after Ray Jr, Calliste, and Minnerath departed in Spring 2013, Ray's record was 44-52 .458 over his final 3 seasons. In his last 3 seasons, Davis is 40-45 .470. A virtual dead heat. Ray encountered just as many eligibility issues (maybe more) than Davis. Bass and Foster-Smith were academically ineligible to play for entire seasons. Blake lost eligibility mid-season. Shy McClellan was announced, but never made the roster. Players like Ackerman, Solanke, Lippert, and Dos Santos came and went - they were not the pieces he needed. Three key components of Ray's successful rosters were transfers from 4-year schools, Simon, Holman, and Lowe. Also, Juwan Howard, Jr and Chris Jenkins were transfers from 4-year schools. All 5 players had to sit out a year under the transfer rules at that time. But now, some complain that Tchikou may have to sit out a year if the NCAA does not grant him a waiver. I point out the foregoing only to show how memories can be selective - especially as time passes. I hope that Alex gets his waiver and can play this year. That's burying the lede to make it appear as if Ray and MD have done a similar job at U-D. You're comparing Ray's worst years with MD's best. A more accurate comparison would be Ray's first five years and Mike's first five years. Davis has had some bad luck and some things beyond his control as Titan coach. Ray had some of those same things, plus was screwed by both of his ADs, one who was literally screwing a member of his staff and another who forced him to hire an assistant coach who wanted Ray to get fired so he could take the head coach job. Ray still managed to do pretty good, even in a conference tougher than the current HL. And speaking of selective memories, plenty of people on the boards complained regularly when Bass, Foster-Smith, and others had to sit out, and when guys like McClellen and BJ Jenkins announced their commitments to the Titans but never suited up. No one gave Ray a pass on that. I'm a Davis fan. I was glad the Titans hired him. I hope he can turn things around. He's clearly had a more impressive career overall than Ray. But this tendency to downplay Ray's performance to make Davis (and BA) look better does Ray and his players a disservice. I'm well aware of Ray's 3 good years, especially 2011-12 and 2012-13. By comparing Davis to Ray's final 3 years, I am acknowledging the limits of the improvements that have occurred under Davis. And that's where we are now - part of the way back. But not where I want us to be.
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Post by motorcitysam on Sept 6, 2023 15:26:36 GMT -5
That's burying the lede to make it appear as if Ray and MD have done a similar job at U-D. You're comparing Ray's worst years with MD's best. A more accurate comparison would be Ray's first five years and Mike's first five years. Davis has had some bad luck and some things beyond his control as Titan coach. Ray had some of those same things, plus was screwed by both of his ADs, one who was literally screwing a member of his staff and another who forced him to hire an assistant coach who wanted Ray to get fired so he could take the head coach job. Ray still managed to do pretty good, even in a conference tougher than the current HL. And speaking of selective memories, plenty of people on the boards complained regularly when Bass, Foster-Smith, and others had to sit out, and when guys like McClellen and BJ Jenkins announced their commitments to the Titans but never suited up. No one gave Ray a pass on that. I'm a Davis fan. I was glad the Titans hired him. I hope he can turn things around. He's clearly had a more impressive career overall than Ray. But this tendency to downplay Ray's performance to make Davis (and BA) look better does Ray and his players a disservice. I'm well aware of Ray's 3 good years, especially 2011-12 and 2012-13. By comparing Davis to Ray's final 3 years, I am acknowledging the limits of the improvements that have occurred under Davis. And that's where we are now - part of the way back. But not where I want us to be. So, you're not counting 2015-16 as a good year for Ray? Winning record, a win in the conference tournament, and bringing back a bunch of contributors to the team for the following season wasn't even "good"? Just clarifying for future reference.
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Post by upbasketballfan on Sept 12, 2023 20:00:55 GMT -5
I think there is a big difference between recruiting mid major women and recruiting mid major men in basketball. Coach Kate has signed some players, but this is year two for her. I'd say the jury is still out, even with some positive signs early on. I'm objectively saying that it is hard to recruit to U-D. If you were Davis, what would you be selling to potential players? Good weather? No. Winning program? No. (And that's actually been typical for much of our history.) Tradition? Well, we have some, but our own administration basically ignores it, so I don't expect recruits to care about it. Large campus with a full social scene? No. Great facilities? No. Lots of amenities for student athletes? No. NIL opportunities? No. Large and engaged fan base? No. You get a better education here than at many of our competitors, but I don't think that's high on the list for many recruits. If a player with no connection to either school had offers from EMU and U-D, what on the U-D side of the ledger pushes him our way? When Ray was fired, there was a loud contingent of fans on this board saying that BA was going to bring in the 4 star recruits we'd been missing out on. Obviously that didn't happen. The coach always bears responsibility for the results of recruiting efforts, but it's not JUST the coach. That's all I'm saying. I’m still trying to figure out how it is easier to recruit women to Liv. & 6 than men. Same campus, same neighborhood, same fan base, same facilities and if anything I would think the girl’s parents are going to be even more tuned in to the area surrounding the campus and the lack of life and activity on campus. I think it should be harder to recruit the women yet here they are recruiting in state with 4 first team all staters and a Ms. Basketball! As far as what Davis should be selling it should be making the player the best that they can be, a quality education and the opportunity to play a lot of minutes on a winning team.
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Post by JDetroitTitan on Sept 13, 2023 9:34:24 GMT -5
I think there is a big difference between recruiting mid major women and recruiting mid major men in basketball. Coach Kate has signed some players, but this is year two for her. I'd say the jury is still out, even with some positive signs early on. I'm objectively saying that it is hard to recruit to U-D. If you were Davis, what would you be selling to potential players? Good weather? No. Winning program? No. (And that's actually been typical for much of our history.) Tradition? Well, we have some, but our own administration basically ignores it, so I don't expect recruits to care about it. Large campus with a full social scene? No. Great facilities? No. Lots of amenities for student athletes? No. NIL opportunities? No. Large and engaged fan base? No. You get a better education here than at many of our competitors, but I don't think that's high on the list for many recruits. If a player with no connection to either school had offers from EMU and U-D, what on the U-D side of the ledger pushes him our way? When Ray was fired, there was a loud contingent of fans on this board saying that BA was going to bring in the 4 star recruits we'd been missing out on. Obviously that didn't happen. The coach always bears responsibility for the results of recruiting efforts, but it's not JUST the coach. That's all I'm saying. I’m still trying to figure out how it is easier to recruit women to Liv. & 6 than men. Same campus, same neighborhood, same fan base, same facilities and if anything I would think the girl’s parents are going to be even more tuned in to the area surrounding the campus and the lack of life and activity on campus. I think it should be harder to recruit the women yet here they are recruiting in state with 4 first team all staters and a Ms. Basketball! As far as what Davis should be selling it should be making the player the best that they can be, a quality education and the opportunity to play a lot of minutes on a winning team. NBA average salary = $5.4 million WNBA average salary = $120,600 Mans Euro League = $500K-$800K yr Spain League = $250K - 500K yr Turkey league = $250K-$500k yr Registered Nurse wage $81,220 (median) to $129,400 Engineer $68K(low end of mean) - $221,550 (high end of top 10 percent) (range depends on what engineer) Career purpose I believe is a big difference between women vs men playing basketball in college.
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Post by Commissioner on Sept 13, 2023 9:40:43 GMT -5
I think there is a big difference between recruiting mid major women and recruiting mid major men in basketball. Coach Kate has signed some players, but this is year two for her. I'd say the jury is still out, even with some positive signs early on. I'm objectively saying that it is hard to recruit to U-D. If you were Davis, what would you be selling to potential players? Good weather? No. Winning program? No. (And that's actually been typical for much of our history.) Tradition? Well, we have some, but our own administration basically ignores it, so I don't expect recruits to care about it. Large campus with a full social scene? No. Great facilities? No. Lots of amenities for student athletes? No. NIL opportunities? No. Large and engaged fan base? No. You get a better education here than at many of our competitors, but I don't think that's high on the list for many recruits. If a player with no connection to either school had offers from EMU and U-D, what on the U-D side of the ledger pushes him our way? When Ray was fired, there was a loud contingent of fans on this board saying that BA was going to bring in the 4 star recruits we'd been missing out on. Obviously that didn't happen. The coach always bears responsibility for the results of recruiting efforts, but it's not JUST the coach. That's all I'm saying. I’m still trying to figure out how it is easier to recruit women to Liv. & 6 than men. Same campus, same neighborhood, same fan base, same facilities and if anything I would think the girl’s parents are going to be even more tuned in to the area surrounding the campus and the lack of life and activity on campus. I think it should be harder to recruit the women yet here they are recruiting in state with 4 first team all staters and a Ms. Basketball! As far as what Davis should be selling it should be making the player the best that they can be, a quality education and the opportunity to play a lot of minutes on a winning team. I think the biggest difference is simply the competition. The Lady Titans will play their home games in a largely empty arena, but so will the Lady Wolverines and the Lady Spartans (they will have quite a few more people than UD, but still a fraction of their cavernous arenas). The Lady Titans won't be on national TV--but neither will the Lady Buckeyes and Marquette Lady Eagles. Most women players are less focused on the idea of playing professionally (mainly because their are far fewer options overseas, and the pro game is not so lucrative), and so less narrowly focused on hoops when thinking about college. HL teams can still have a reasonable shot at being nationally ranked in the women's game. The UD women still regularly play MSU and UM. NIL is less important because it is smaller, if it exists at all, at most schools and for most players than in the men's game. All these things are changing, with the women's game becoming more like the men's. But they're not there yet. All the more reason we need good management, good coaching, and on-court success now, while the competitive factors are not further stacked against us.
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Post by nctitan on Sept 13, 2023 10:40:55 GMT -5
Don't believe the propaganda that opposing coaches spread.
I have spoken with quite a few women athletes at Detroit Mercy and they all really love the experience. They get a great education (many are in the nursing programs or 5-year MBA) and form great friendships. I think are less focused on playing in front of crowds and they're more attuned to camaraderie, friendships, and teammates. I expect top-level men players see the glitz and glamour of big-time basketball and they're drawn to that. Women, less so.
A few years ago I spoke to the parents of a five-year Lady Titan (they were from the Cleveland area) and they said that at first glance they were wary of the location -- but their daughter absolutely fell in love with the school and the program and had a wonderful experience. And inside the perimeter of the campus it's very comfortable.
Visit the campus. It's really pretty attractive. (The athletic facilities could, of course, be upgraded.)
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Post by motorcitysam on Sept 15, 2023 10:57:41 GMT -5
Given recent NCAA decisions and the association's history of not doing the mid majors any favors, I'm not optimistic about waivers being granted for any of the Titan players who need them. With that in mind, I have been wondering which of those players decides to stick around, sit out the year, and come back to the Titans in 2024-25.
Those who consider themselves advocates for student athletes have characterized the "sit out" year as a burden on players, but I don't think it was that simple. There were probably very few players whose careers (academic and athletic) were hurt by sitting out. And my observation is that that redshirt year helped more than a few. It was a chance to get ahead on academics, improve physically and skill-wise, acclimate to new surroundings, etc.
My hope is that if Alex doesn't get a waiver he sticks around for next season. An experienced big man is always welcome and I think he can thrive in the HL. But you never know what is motivating guys these days. In the past academic success and getting an actual degree were important factors, but now it seems the goal is to get out of college as soon as possible and try to get into a pro league.
There is still lots of uncertainty about the team this year, but that's not unusual in today's college basketball environment.
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Post by JDetroitTitan on Sept 19, 2023 10:52:21 GMT -5
Added some more information
NBA average salary = $5.4 million (lowest paid $1.1 mil and highest paid $52 mil a year) WNBA average salary = $120,600 (lowest paid $62,285 and highest paid $252,240 a year )
Mans Euro League = $500K-$800K yr Spain League = $250K - 500K yr Turkey league = $250K-$500k yr
Registered Nurse wage $81,220 (median) to $129,400 Engineer $68K(low end of mean) - $221,550 (high end of top 10 percent) (range depends on what engineer)
head Coach pay WNBA - $58,262 to $85,478 NBA - $2 Mil to $ 16 mil
Career purpose I believe is a big difference between women vs men playing basketball in college.
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