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Post by titantarheel on May 14, 2021 7:06:43 GMT -5
I'm so embarrassed and frustrated with the Athletic Department over the past few years. I'm at the point that I'm just about done with my alma mater It seems that for a long time the University has had a tendency to not get in front of stories like this, basically letting others write the narrative. We're always in "catch up" mode, and by the time the school makes a statement, public opinion has already been set. It's a mess that keeps getting messier. Ptc- it’s worse because today there’s stories in both freep and news that makes the university look bad. The quotes you notes do not seem to exonerating the program and university in the court of public opinion. It’s become a daily, terribly negative story for the program. The story is repeated and the school mocked on various outlets far and wide, including a major podcast I listen to has even brought it up and they never talk about udm. It’s worse. And getting worse by the day as an ugly ugly story for the program. I am embarrassed. And I feel worse about my alma mater.
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Post by Commissioner on May 14, 2021 7:40:17 GMT -5
"Worse" from a PR standpoint and "worse" from a substantive standpoint are two very different things. One thing we know is that Vowels is willing to fire coaches, including his own hires.
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Post by Rogobob77 on May 14, 2021 9:15:18 GMT -5
From the Detroit News: “UDM player claims team's 'cry for help' ignored; AD says abuse allegations unsubstantiated” www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2021/05/14/udm-player-claims-players-cry-help-ignored-ad-says-abuse-allegations-unsubstantiated/5018418001/I find this disconcerting: “Shears — the first player to speak on the record about the situation — said she first felt that something was off with the new coaching staff last summer. She had to miss one of the team Zoom meetings because of a class and said ‘I remember that being a situation between me and the coach.’ She said she later was told by Gilbert that she couldn't register for certain classes, because they conflicted with practice, while the previous staff, under coach Bernard Scott, ‘embraced’ her major of mechanical engineering. “Detroit Mercy is a smaller university, with an enrollment under 5,000, and there aren't a lot of options for certain classes, especially specialty classes like ones Shears needed for her major. "’it was definitely very frustrating, that major change of having a staff that completely embraced academics to one I felt like put that on the back burner,’ she said.”
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Post by motorcitysam on May 14, 2021 9:22:55 GMT -5
How do you mean "worse?" Do you mean that none of the players' claims could be substantiated by the independent outside law firm that investigated them? “Any concern from a student-athlete about health or safety receives my highest priority," Vowels said in a statement provided to the Free Press on Thursday night. "Every concern expressed from this team was heard by athletic and university administration immediately following the initial letter that was sent from the team and parents on Jan. 17. For the next two days, I listened first-hand to every member of the team and took appropriate action to look into each situation. We then conducted an internal fact-finding by an independent outside legal counsel and the allegations were not substantiated which led to us retaining the head coach." "In the months since concerns were first expressed, we have put steps in place to ensure compliance going forward and assure a safe and healthy environment for all student-athletes in this and every program. Also, our Athletic Academic Services Office works closely with all student-athletes to ensure they remain eligible to compete and complete their academic degree requirements." Worse as in it's more bad PR and this latest development probably doesn't make it easier to recruit players at a time when we need to replace the entire D1 roster by September. And regarding this "independent outside legal counsel"; were they hired and paid by the University? If so, let's not act like it was an actual independent authority that found the allegations without merit. We had an "independent outside" firm tell us a few years ago that doubling down on the Mercy brand was the way to improve branding and alleviate confusion. Does anyone objectively think that was right? I understand you being a "the glass is always full" guy when it comes to the University, PTC, and there are times I agree with you. I was in favor of the Gilbert hire and if she has a basketball camp for kids this summer, I will probably send my niece. My thoughts on this whole matter is that it got blew up bigger than it should have. But let's not act like the constant media attention on this story has no impact on how the program is perceived and it's immediate future.
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Post by motorcitysam on May 14, 2021 9:31:34 GMT -5
From the Detroit News: “UDM player claims team's 'cry for help' ignored; AD says abuse allegations unsubstantiated” www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2021/05/14/udm-player-claims-players-cry-help-ignored-ad-says-abuse-allegations-unsubstantiated/5018418001/I find this disconcerting: “Shears — the first player to speak on the record about the situation — said she first felt that something was off with the new coaching staff last summer. She had to miss one of the team Zoom meetings because of a class and said ‘I remember that being a situation between me and the coach.’ She said she later was told by Gilbert that she couldn't register for certain classes, because they conflicted with practice, while the previous staff, under coach Bernard Scott, ‘embraced’ her major of mechanical engineering.” . .. "’it was definitely very frustrating, that major change of having a staff that completely embraced academics to one I felt like put that on the back burner,’ she said.” That's concerning, and certainly not a good look for the school. Obviously there are certain coaches who put that kind of pressure on student/athletes, but it's never right. I think that's why a lot of coaches like those "crack of dawn" practices to avoid conflicts with classes. That seems to be the best way to go if you are trying to avoid those situations. You don't want a coach dictating what classes a student should take.
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Post by bigchuck on May 14, 2021 10:19:43 GMT -5
I have used the statements quoted in PTC's response. My thoughts in Bold. "Every concern expressed from this team was heard by athletic and university administration immediately following the initial letter that was sent from the team and parents on Jan. 17." Where were they before the letter? Attempts were made to get the Administration's attention. "We then conducted an internal fact-finding by an independent outside legal counsel and the allegations were not substantiated which led to us retaining the head coach." What does this mean? Depends on what their definition of substantiated is. There is a lot of wiggle room there. It infers that every player lied and was not backed up by the other players. I suspect that they want it to mean "even though some of the allegations were collaborated, they did not rise to a level that the University determined required the removal of the head coach. If that is so, why not be honest and say that? No reasonable person could believe that there was no collaboration of any of the allegations during interviews with every player. "Also, our Athletic Academic Services Office works closely with all student-athletes to ensure they remain eligible to compete and complete their academic degree requirements." Apparently now the goal of the Athletic Academic Services Office is to keep the athletes eligible and get them a minimum degree. This is certainly not what we were told when we solicited for funds for the Academic Center in Calihan Hall.- I believe that the known facts, as reported, show a lack of institutional control over the Women's Basketball program.
- I believe that shaming of the players because they were paying too much attention to academics are true and was collaborated.
- I believe the allegations about not reporting COVID symptoms are accurate while I realize that it cannot be proven.
- I believe that the University did not do as much as they should have done to support all of the athletes that were isolated on an empty campus in dorms that were empty due to the COVID closure of campus. This made what was a bad situation much, much worse. It also probably contributed to some of the Men's players just wanting to end the season and forego a tournament and just end the season.
I am terribly disappointed in the University.
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Post by titantarheel on May 14, 2021 10:42:14 GMT -5
Big Chuck nails it exactly. I won't repeat all of his points because heck he does a great job laying it all out and why there is significant doubt (loss of confidence) in what Vowels is saying about all this. Ugly. Makes me mad at the university, and sad at the same time as I wish so much better for dear ol UDM.
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Post by upbasketballfan on May 14, 2021 11:26:36 GMT -5
From the Detroit News: “UDM player claims team's 'cry for help' ignored; AD says abuse allegations unsubstantiated” www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2021/05/14/udm-player-claims-players-cry-help-ignored-ad-says-abuse-allegations-unsubstantiated/5018418001/I find this disconcerting: “Shears — the first player to speak on the record about the situation — said she first felt that something was off with the new coaching staff last summer. She had to miss one of the team Zoom meetings because of a class and said ‘I remember that being a situation between me and the coach.’ She said she later was told by Gilbert that she couldn't register for certain classes, because they conflicted with practice, while the previous staff, under coach Bernard Scott, ‘embraced’ her major of mechanical engineering.” . .. "’it was definitely very frustrating, that major change of having a staff that completely embraced academics to one I felt like put that on the back burner,’ she said.” That's concerning, and certainly not a good look for the school. Obviously there are certain coaches who put that kind of pressure on student/athletes, but it's never right. I think that's why a lot of coaches like those "crack of dawn" practices to avoid conflicts with classes. That seems to be the best way to go if you are trying to avoid those situations. You don't want a coach dictating what classes a student should take. I still think the blame for this whole uncomfortable situation is spread over many participants. We can't blame the players for being in over their heads. Whether they are D1 Athletes or not doesn't matter. I am sure some of them were sitting home trying to figure out how they were going to cover the costs of their education and then someone contacts them and tells them they are better players than they really are and convinces them they can acquire an education by coming to UD to play basketball. Then we wait too long to hire a coach and bring her in late to perform a miracle. She has missed most of the recruiting season in a Covid year and has 4 scholarships available and is saddled with a team of players who not only is made up of players without D1 talent and contains 3 athletes who could not even run the floor but is also a group that was probably coddled. Pressed with the task of winning or becoming an ex UD coach, Gilbert presses on trying to win and thinking she can transform some of these players into better players. She institutes a running program for conditioning only to be met with resistance. She attempts to build a team first concept by doing what has worked for her in the past but is met with resistance again. The team has not figured out that a team is built not only through friendships and attending movies together but also though sacrifice. The leaders and speakers for this team are not in favor of Gilbert or her methods so a barrier is created and every mistake she makes is enhanced. Gilbert didn't think bringing the Webb's in would result in the outcome that finally did occur. Is it possible that Gilbert did not hire Tim Webb but he was an applicant for the first chair with his daughter as a plus and his name was passed on and she was encouraged to hire him. Having to win and wanting a path back to the upper levels of College coaching she accepts the job and the like most successful coaches thinks she is good enough to improve the program not giving into the reality that no one could go forward with what she is handcuffed with regardless of whether it is her doing or a product of someone else. I used to call practices at 6:00 on Sat. and Sunday mornings so I knew there was no way any of the players would be out partying late on the weekends or they would be puking on the floor the next morning. There would always be some players sleeping in their cars because they didn't want to be late for practice or let their team down. I have wondered since hearing about the situation down there, how this team would have reacted to those practices. So previously I have felt compassion for Coach Gilbert but in thinking about this I do feel the blame for this situation can easily be shared by many. I am sure there were opportunities on many fronts to disarm this situation and we missed or targets. We are at the point where we should move on from this, learn from it, and expect better in the future.
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Post by Rogobob77 on May 16, 2021 7:52:02 GMT -5
There is another long story on this situation in today’s (May 16) Detroit Free Press sports section, this one behind the paywall. The article headline is "How Detroit Mercy women's basketball's 'cry for help' shattered dreams, gutted roster" Here's the link for subscribers: www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2021/05/16/detroit-mercy-womens-basketball-annmarie-gilbert-robert-vowels/5113531001/It is very critical of AD Robert Vowels and includes remarks from a number of longtime donors to Titans Athletics who indicate they can no longer support the program. Here's a couple paragraphs: The Free Press talked to multiple Titans, their parents, UDM faculty and financial supporters of the program since the school’s decision to cancel the final 10 games of the 2020-21 regular season Jan. 20 after players said they would no longer play for Gilbert but wanted to continue under anyone else. All of them painted a picture of dysfunction within UDM that left them questioning the actions of Gilbert and Vowels.
“I’m totally fed up,” said Chuck Raeder, a University of Detroit alum who is a major donor to the women’s program along with his wife, Joann, a Mercy College graduate. “I don’t know whether they’ll ever get another dollar out of me. I am so disappointed.”
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Post by titantarheel on May 16, 2021 8:58:04 GMT -5
The freep story was front page of sports section, at the tip top of page. Can’t be missed. When did we last have this spot on the news page? And here it is for this sad story.
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Post by upbasketballfan on May 16, 2021 10:50:10 GMT -5
The freep story was front page of sports section, at the tip top of page. Can’t be missed. When did we last have this spot on the news page? And here it is for this sad story. Selective coverage of the U of D is exactly why I cancelled my 2 subscriptions to the Freep in 1988 and quit advertising there and I think I was a good advertiser as I used to run a full page 4 days a week including Sundays. I started using the Observer Excentric system with an occasional Michigan Chronicle or Toledo Blade and an increase in radio thru the summer and increased business with the same annual capital outlay. I have not given the Free Press or the News a penny since and do not miss them a bit. I always felt their coverage was aimed more at reporting negative rather than positive news about the University of Detroit and I do understand their leaning towards the State Universities with their larger alumni bases and their attempt to keep circulation #'s but I seemed to always be digging for the good news and getting hit in the face with the negative.
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Post by ptctitan on May 16, 2021 11:10:18 GMT -5
The current media interest in my school reminds me of this song.
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Post by bigchuck on May 16, 2021 11:51:01 GMT -5
The freep story was front page of sports section, at the tip top of page. Can’t be missed. When did we last have this spot on the news page? And here it is for this sad story. Selective coverage of the U of D is exactly why I cancelled my 2 subscriptions to the Freep in 1988 and quit advertising there and I think I was a good advertiser as I used to run a full page 4 days a week including Sundays. I started using the Observer Excentric system with an occasional Michigan Chronicle or Toledo Blade and an increase in radio thru the summer and increased business with the same annual capital outlay. I have not given the Free Press or the News a penny since and do not miss them a bit. I always felt their coverage was aimed more at reporting negative rather than positive news about the University of Detroit and I do understand their leaning towards the State Universities with their larger alumni bases and their attempt to keep circulation #'s but I seemed to always be digging for the good news and getting hit in the face with the negative. I agree with you that the Freep does not cover UDM as it should. It is extremely disappointing that there is no one assigned to cover our athletic program. This story is written by the MSU beat writer, probably because of the Coach coached at MSU. The Free Press did not make the story, the University did. They cancelled the season which is a news item. That died down and then they released a statement which essentially called the Players and Parents liars. That became a new news story. The writer had contacted me weeks ago. I told him then that I would not go public then but if the women were "hung out to dry" I would not let them hang out there by themselves. Jiera and Max are both good young women that did not deserve the treatment they received. I was not going to let them take the heat alone. The story that was in the Free Press today is fair and I believe it to be accurate and verified. It was time to get off the sidelines.
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Post by upbasketballfan on May 16, 2021 11:57:30 GMT -5
There is another long story on this situation in today’s (May 16) Detroit Free Press sports section, this one behind the paywall. The article headline is "How Detroit Mercy women's basketball's 'cry for help' shattered dreams, gutted roster" Here's the link for subscribers: www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2021/05/16/detroit-mercy-womens-basketball-annmarie-gilbert-robert-vowels/5113531001/It is very critical of AD Robert Vowels and includes remarks from a number of longtime donors to Titans Athletics who indicate they can no longer support the program. Here's a couple paragraphs: The Free Press talked to multiple Titans, their parents, UDM faculty and financial supporters of the program since the school’s decision to cancel the final 10 games of the 2020-21 regular season Jan. 20 after players said they would no longer play for Gilbert but wanted to continue under anyone else. All of them painted a picture of dysfunction within UDM that left them questioning the actions of Gilbert and Vowels.
“I’m totally fed up,” said Chuck Raeder, a University of Detroit alum who is a major donor to the women’s program along with his wife, Joann, a Mercy College graduate. “I don’t know whether they’ll ever get another dollar out of me. I am so disappointed.” Look how they twist the knife on this one, " I don't know whether they'll ever get another dollar out of me. I am so disappointed" becomes a number of longtime donors to Titan Athletics who indicate they can no longer support the program. So the thought of I don't know becomes "they can no longer support the program." I hope the Freep is wrong on this one because Chuck is an important donor and fan of the University and we do need him. Maybe I am reading into this again, as I usually do, but I get a gut feel of glee coming from the writer of this article and the reporters eagerness to inflict damage.
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Post by upbasketballfan on May 16, 2021 12:04:10 GMT -5
Selective coverage of the U of D is exactly why I cancelled my 2 subscriptions to the Freep in 1988 and quit advertising there and I think I was a good advertiser as I used to run a full page 4 days a week including Sundays. I started using the Observer Excentric system with an occasional Michigan Chronicle or Toledo Blade and an increase in radio thru the summer and increased business with the same annual capital outlay. I have not given the Free Press or the News a penny since and do not miss them a bit. I always felt their coverage was aimed more at reporting negative rather than positive news about the University of Detroit and I do understand their leaning towards the State Universities with their larger alumni bases and their attempt to keep circulation #'s but I seemed to always be digging for the good news and getting hit in the face with the negative. I agree with you that the Freep does not cover UDM as it should. It is extremely disappointing that there is no one assigned to cover our athletic program. This story is written by the MSU beat writer, probably because of the Coach coached at MSU. The Free Press did not make the story, the University did. They cancelled the season which is a news item. That died down and then they released a statement which essentially called the Players and Parents liars. That became a new news story. The writer had contacted me weeks ago. I told him then that I would not go public then but if the women were "hung out to dry" I would not let them hang out there by themselves. Jiera and Max are both good young women that did not deserve the treatment they received. I was not going to let them take the heat alone. The story that was in the Free Press today is fair and I believe it to be accurate and verified. It was time to get off the sidelines. Sorry I was writing while you were sending the above. I know you are close to the team and parents and think highly of them but I hope the University does not lose you over this. The University needs you more than ever now.
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